Need injection pump expert for timing problem

[Turbine Doc]

if you have that much difference between actual and desired and it dies with time set, and you had to move 1/4" to get an improvement I'd hazzard a guess timing is not correct or you have a IP issue.

 

[stickweld]

Can anyone tell me how their engine runs while running in time set at 3.5 degrees? I'm curious how well they should be running in that mode?


I think that the cam and crank are probably correct, since it runs so good when the timming is forced over. Since this new engine comes with a timming cover and oil pan already installed, the timing chain and gears as well as the cam gear were already installed. The guy who put it the long block would have had to install only the injection pump gear. Wish I could think of a way to see if it was in correct without taking it all apart.

 

[Slim Shady]

Today I started by marking my -1.58 TDCO IP position with a punch. When I moved the truck to a flatter area on the driveway the FSO does look almost perfectly vertical. This is an interesting site showing pictures of how far the marks can be out. I saw no advertising so I think it is okay to post the link.http://www.v8dieseltech.net/pump/62timing_e.htm Mine line up perfectly according to the pictures.
I then slowly moved it over a 1/16 inch at a time towards the drivers side without doing anything else. By the time it was running and sounding right at idle it was about 1/4" from the marked position. Puts the FSO leaning way over to the drivers side, almost to the limit of travel. No smoke at all at idle, runs really smooth, about the right amount of hammer, but no advance anymore, and codes comming up. Actual timing was 20.1 degrees, desired was 9.0. I even took it for a drive today, runs pretty good at low RPM, blows a bit of grey/white if your into the throttle, but it had no problem getting up to highway speed with minimal smoke if you accelerate moderately. Not right because it has no advance, but by far the best it has run.

If memory serves me correctly, I think that 1/4" would be the spacing of one gear tooth on the injection pump gear? What do you guys think?

Well, I need to think this out. I think checking to see if the gears on your pump are not timed right is the prudent thing to do. Did the injector pump you have now come out of a running vehicle? If so did you own the vehicle and can verify the pump ran fine.

I think gears but may be wrong, if you can set -1.5 on TDC offset and the truck runs poorly when put back in normal mode, AND THE TRUCK RUNS FINE, when the IP is advanced without doing a TDC learn. The pump when timed normally should be close to level maybe titled slightly to the driver side.

Possible one tooth on the timing gear, the amount of offset is right.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Can anyone tell me how their engine runs while running in time set at 3.5 degrees? I'm curious how well they should be running in that mode?


I think that the cam and crank are probably correct, since it runs so good when the timming is forced over. Since this new engine comes with a timming cover and oil pan already installed, the timing chain and gears as well as the cam gear were already installed. The guy who put it the long block would have had to install only the injection pump gear. Wish I could think of a way to see if it was in correct without taking it all apart.

Every truck I've done time set with scan tool 0 desired & 3.5 deg actual avg., manages to stay running, that is the base timing as called for after IP replacement by GM, on a few where the avg is just below 3.5 deg avg that shut down, & I've had to rotate IP to driver side angain that is what is called for in GM manual, so if yours is not capable of running with 0 desired & 3.5 avg actual, rotate IP a little to driver side 1mm(scribe line width) =2 degree time change, if it won't stay running with 3.5/3.7 avg something is wrong.

 

[stickweld]

I think Chrisk1500 was right early on, the pump gear must be off a tooth, it answers all the scenarios. TDCO can be set normally with the pump in the "standard" upright position, because it is only comparing itself with the crank sensor signal, but since the gear is off a tooth the real injection time is severly retarded from normal. Moving the pump to the drivers side as far as possible gets the pump in time enough to smooth out the idle, but now the offset between the crank position sensor and the pumps optical sensor is so far out that it can't be learned with a TDCO offset. The computer is determining actual timing by the relationship between the crank sensor and the optical sensors advance measurement. So with the pump cranked way over to the drivers side, it measures the timing at 20 degrees fully retarded, so it tries to retard the timing right to the stop to compensate and never allows any more advance to come in.

Should know pretty soon, dropped it off tonight at the shop that put in my long block. Hopefully that is what the problem is and they admit to it.

To Slim S's question, I have put about 10,000Km on this brand new injection pump with the old motor, I had no problems with it. Only thing that is different between old and new motor is I put on a set of new stock bosch injectors.

Turbine doc, thanks for the info on how it runs at 3.5 degrees, mine is on the edge of running at 5-6 degrees and lots of white smoke, at 3.5 degrees it is almost impossible to keep running and it pours out the smoke. By my calculation each tooth of the injector gear is about 6.67 degrees, so 13.5 crankshaft degrees. If the injector gear is off by 1 tooth retarded, when time set shows I have the pump at 3.5 degrees BTDC, the real injection timing would be about 10 degrees after TDC resulting in all the smoke and poor running.

 

[Slim Shady]

let us know how what happens

 

[stickweld]

Mechanic called me yesterday afternoon, he had taken the waterpump off to expose the injection pump gear and said it was correct and not off a tooth. I went over to see for myself and it looks okay. Using the core that is still in the back of the truck, I compared position of the timing mark on the Vibration Damper, with the position of the cam gear to see if maybe the crank to cam timing was off and it looks correct also. I did not pull the timing cover though. The mechanic said he had a problem with the Crank Position Sensor when he took it out of the old motor and that the plastic that holds it to the metal bracket had cracked, but he was carefull to keep it in the same orientation when he installed it in the new motor. It looks to me like it could be 90 or 180 degrees out and still fit in the square recess of the bracket. I told him to put a new one in and button it back up. Hope he was honest that the gear was not out a tooth otherwise he will be able to blame it on the CPS either way. Since I was wrong about the gear being off a tooth, I have another few hundred owed to him plus the price of a CPS and I still don't know if it will be fixed. I sure hope it works, I have now spent way more than the truck is worth and it is still not running good enough to drive anywhere.

Anyone know somewhere in Calgary I could take this that knows what they are doing? I thought I did, but not anymore, I wish I had just dumped the truck when the piston went.

 

[stickweld]

It Runs!!!!

If I take the mechanics word for it that he did not find the injector pump gear out a tooth, I believe the root cause was that he broke the bracket off the crank position sensor and when he reinstalled it he got it aligned 90 or 180 degress out. This results in the timing being out in relation to true TDC, but correct in relation to the crank sensor.

Anyways, it is now correctly timed, and TDCO is set at -1.58 degrees, a compromise between rattle and power.

I believe that it would be possible to shift timing across the entire RPM range by modifying the crank position sensor to pick up the reluctor a few degrees earlier than it does in stock position.

I am concerned as oil pressure seems low, but I will start a new thread for that.

 

[Slim Shady]

-

It Runs!!!!

If I take the mechanics word for it that he did not find the injector pump gear out a tooth, I believe the root cause was that he broke the bracket off the crank position sensor and when he reinstalled it he got it aligned 90 or 180 degress out. This results in the timing being out in relation to true TDC, but correct in relation to the crank sensor.

Anyways, it is now correctly timed, and TDCO is set at -1.58 degrees, a compromise between rattle and power.

I believe that it would be possible to shift timing across the entire RPM range by modifying the crank position sensor to pick up the reluctor a few degrees earlier than it does in stock position.

I am concerned as oil pressure seems low, but I will start a new thread for that.

Glad to hear that your truck runs
We knew timming had to be off on something other than your IP. Congrats:holyshirt: