Injection Pump timing problem

[Mudbath]

I have a snapshot attached and what is bugging me is where it says Actual injection pump timing I rotated the pump quite a bit to passenger side and got it down to the 28.95 Deg* (was at 35 Deg * and looking at old snapshots, has alway been high). Is this the same number that is shown in Time Set as base timing which I believe should be 3.5 Deg * or as someone else said 3.8 Deg * which will get you to a -1.50 to -1.85 range of TDC offset (when setting TDC offset)

This truck has always had a cold starting problem and everything has been done to it including just replacing the Injection Pump to a DS4 5521S. Also engine will stall when doing Time Set to TDC Offset in GMTDScan Tech. So finding the base timing there is impossible for me to do. Is it possible that the Injection Pump gear timing has always been out? PO had the IP changed out on warrantee years ago. When I changed pump I did it through the oil filler tube hole and left the gear the same. Cannot see where the gear timing is from there though, will have to pull the front of engine to see for sure.


View attachment GMTDSCan Tech.pdf

 

[ak diesel driver]

do you have a timing mark on the crank pulley? Also you need to list parts that have been replaced so we don't go thru all that again

 

[Mudbath]

Ok, there is a line on the harmonic balancer, but no reference marks on the timing cover. There is two bolt holes where it looks like there could be a pointer like on a gasser but nothing bolted to it. If I put the line between the two hole I can see the pin on the IP timing gear in the oil filler hole. So I guess if I new exactly where to put the crank position and knew where the IP timing gear pin should be then I would know if it was out.

This truck has got all new injectors (Delco), Heath Max-e-Tork Chip, turbo master, glows are the Delco 60g and have been tested. Glow plug relay, Glow plug over ride upgrade, and now the IP DS4 5521S, Heath remote PMD kit.

 

[Mudbath]

Here I have the line on Harmonic Balancer 1/2 way between the holes because I don't know where TDC would be, but IP gear pin should be straight up if crank is at TDC. And for some reason it is putting these pictures upside down ggrrrrrrrr

 

[Mudbath]

in this picture (not mine) you can see that the IP gear pin is aligned with the timing dot.

 

[hawkeye1101]

I cant look ay mine right now since my truck is 60 miles away...but, going from memory I think TDC would be some where closer to the upper bolt/rivet hole. I think where the mark in your pic (between the two bolt/rivet holes would be AFTER TDC.

 

[racer55]

Timeset is only really usefull for making sure the stepper motor is working.

TDCO is the important timing number.

Start with the IP mounted straight up and down using the FSO as a reference.

Bring the engine up to 170f+ and perforn the TDCO relearn and note results.
Then to achieve a desired # rotate the IP in small increments(1mm=about 2 degrees change)drivers side rotation gives a more - result,passenger side rotation gives a more + result.

If for example after a TDCO relearn the reading is +1.0 degrees,you would want to move the IP towards the drivers side slightly more than 1.3mm and then tighten down the top IP bolt only,get the temp back up to 170f+ and perform the TDCO relearn again noting the result.
When you get what you are looking for tighten the other 2 IP bolts and have a nice day.
It can take some time but will be worth it in the end.

 

[3500GMC]

Here I have the line on Harmonic Balancer 1/2 way between the holes because I don't know where TDC would be, but IP gear pin should be straight up if crank is at TDC. And for some reason it is putting these pictures upside down ggrrrrrrrr

Keep in mind the crank spins 2 revs to the cam and IP's 1.

Sometimes the outer ring slips on the elastomer rubber with older high mile HB's too..

 

[bison]

in this picture (not mine) you can see that the IP gear pin is aligned with the timing dot.

View attachment 30690

The IP dowel should not be used as timing reference,I would remove the center bolt from the crankshaft (so you can see the keyway),thenTurn the crank shaft clock wise till the dots on both timing gears face each other at 12 and 6 o'clock.
The crank keyway should be at 12 or 6 0'clock(depending on what stroke the crank sits as to piston 1[compr or exh) to have the timing correct.
Unless the crank gear's timing dot is not at the same side or oposite the keyway(i can't remember if it is)

 

[3500GMC]

Timing set is dot to dot, crank keyway is slightly counterclockwise in relation to the timing groove in the HB. The HB groove is directly in line with one of the four pulley bolts.

Crank timing gear keyway is like two teeth clockwise from the dot when all lined up.

 

[Mudbath]

Crank positioned any where in the range (IP is still out) a reference picture would verify it before I have to pull it apart. Thanks

 

[Mudbath]

It is the hard cold starts and smoke that I really want to fix. I know something isn't right and I am starting to think that the IP timing gear is wrong. I cannot do a Time Set or Learn engine will stall during procedure, turning pump both ways made very little difference. Thanks

 

[Mudbath]

I haven't got the timing cover off yet, I was hoping to reference it to confirm if it is. If it is out I don't mind doing it but if it looks good I have already done a lot of labour (and money) with no positive results yet. Tough sell for the IP with the wife, with the cold weather I want to spend as little time out in the non heated garage as possible. Thanks

 

[3500GMC]

Timing chain:
Cam sprocket 6 oclock
Crank sproket 12 oclock


IP gearing
IP gear 6 oclock
Cam IP gear 12 oclock.

It all lines up at the same time by using the dots.

 

[bison]

There is more ways to skin that cat without removing the timing cover..
Pull the # 1 injector,use a rod or wire in the hole and run the piston up to TDC,see if the IP gear marks line up at 6 and 12 ,if not,turn the crank another revolution.

 

[ak diesel driver]

maybe this will help

 

[Mudbath]

Thanks Bison, I was just looking at head pictures to see if I could go though the injector hole or glow plug hole. Could not remember which went through the pre cup. Your da man.

 

[Mudbath]

Does the keyway line up with the harmonic balancer line? Then I need to know where on the cover the line points to, I will then use a punch to mark the cover. I think I will try Bison's idea, that will be accurate. Then I can see through the oil filler hole to see if IP gear pin is straight up (can't see it when it is straight down) and this is where it would be if the cam and IP gear dots were aligned. Previous picture shows the pin is aligned with IP gear dot.

 

[ak diesel driver]

from what I can see the keyway is about 5-10* off of the mark on the HB. the lower bolt hole for the timing tabs appears to line up the mark on the HB. these pics are off of a 6.2 but I can't imagine them being diff on a 6.5

 

[Mudbath]

Thanks ak, I have the HB line pointing at the bottom hole now and the IP pin is I would guess 1 tooth clockwise of straight up. I think I now know what I will be doing tonight! At least there is a Chinook blowing right now.