- Staff
- #21
I'll check that out. Thank you for the info.
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I think I may have gelled.
- Thread starter RI Chevy Silveradoman
- Start date
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
FWIW 911 doesn't work very well and doesn't seem to last. thin it with some gasoline
- Staff
- #23
How much gas for a tank?
btfarm
America First!
Well remember... I park in a wood stove heated shop at night. Coldest it gets by morning when it's way below zero overnight (-15* or so) is about 35*. Most mornings it's mid 40s.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
In the mid 80s the VW diesel owners manual said as much as 50%. don't know with ULSD
Will L.
Well-Known Member
The refinery your fuel is coming from could have simply tried running a little higher slack wax content in the heavier fuels in your area, and with the oil prices doing what they are, it is happening all across the country right now. Does the fuel feel like more "wax" when rubbed between your fingers?
The problem with a high gas cut is the fuels will seperate in your tank sitting overnight. The diesel will sit on the bottom of the tank where your pickup tube is, and the gas will sit on top. Sulfur in the fuel will help the two stay "mixed" longer, but without it, nope.
I don't know cold like you guys do, but I do know fuel up one side and down the other. Mixing is not a good idea. I can go into a dissertation if you really want.
Dump the fuel and buy from another supplier, change the filter, ensure your heater is working.
The problem with a high gas cut is the fuels will seperate in your tank sitting overnight. The diesel will sit on the bottom of the tank where your pickup tube is, and the gas will sit on top. Sulfur in the fuel will help the two stay "mixed" longer, but without it, nope.
I don't know cold like you guys do, but I do know fuel up one side and down the other. Mixing is not a good idea. I can go into a dissertation if you really want.
Dump the fuel and buy from another supplier, change the filter, ensure your heater is working.
- Staff
- #27
Thanks Will. I appreciate the response. I knew from the past thst you were a diesel fuel guy. Is it worth adding Power Service white in the winter? I guess what I am asking is, does it help with antigelling? This is my first ever fuel issue from gelling or waxing.
I didn't get a chance to rub the fuel between my fingers to check if it was waxy or not. I woll try it and check when I can.
I didn't get a chance to rub the fuel between my fingers to check if it was waxy or not. I woll try it and check when I can.
dissertation! dissertation! dissertation!
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
Myself I would put some gas in just to allow me to run it out and then find better fuel. no need to waste it.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
This is in no way intended to look as an argument with my friend from the great state of Alaska. I have learned from him, and have admiration for him, his brother and father. There is no flipping way I could ever learn half as much about dealing with the cold weather as his pinky toe remembers or has forgotten by itself. I just know fuel very well, and have worked with many an engineer in solving design problems with engines, as well as been on the forefront of most every type of new fuel design and testing, including my current employer-
This is my 2cents, and intended to educate anyone interested, and to make WarWagon laugh more.
RI Chevy
What is the best for waxing or gelling? Heat. No substitute.
Pull out a little in a glass jar and hold up to the light. Any cloudiness or particulates? If particulates, you could just be plugging the filter. If cloudy, you are hitting you cloud point, the fuel is too cold. If refineries could raise the cloud point by just adding a bit of less profitable gasoline, they would do it in the interest of money. They don't, instead the distillation column and splitter is operated under different parameters at an added expense.
Idk a brand or type of additive that can solve this or other cold issues any better than hear say. If the only answer is gas, then I don't know what to say, roll the dice? I'd rather not after what I've learned.
Gas is rated by octane, diesel by cetane. They are effectively opposites. If octane goes up, the cetane has to go down. There is very little actual cetane (1-hexadecane technically) in diesel fuel, 50% burn rate is the peak of performance, and the term cetane is a burn rate percentage based off of actual burn rate from real cetane the hydrocarbon. When your cetane rating falls, your burn efficiency drops, so it ignites later and burns slower sooting more and leaving behind 2% more carbon per cetane number dropped for the first 2/3 of the scale. So if you only run a 10 lower cetane rated diesel with no other changes- you have 20 times dirtier chamber and engine oil, along with 10% less power and efficiency.
Now the two non mixed fuels together. Putting them I one container does not mix them. The are separate on a molecular level as well as a gravitational level. Yes they will look mixed but you have to think molecular level here. The "lights" in the gas don't average down, and the "heavies" in the diesel don't lighten up, now there is just a fatter "middle", with a longer over all range.
Lower cetane with no external ignition heat (spark plug) causes advanced & multiple detonation during each cycle. The extra knock/ping you here from gas in the diesel is the gasoline separating from the diesel in the cylinder, burning of first at a flashpoint way to low for the compression. Then post burning (yes a second flame front) when the heat is high enough to ignite the sub-naphtha (c10 & possibly c11). However the flame having stared in two locations has to collide causing impact #3 in the cylinder. Now the diesel fuel has not gotten the full compression at the normal time it does and actually starts its ignition a little late - but at least it is the forth and final bang in the cylinder trying to shove the piston down since it is now retarded timing will go easily. That is why you see it smoke a tad more (a more whitened smoke) even if you add a little by mistake in the summer time. So a little burning fuel while certain valves are not closed get some extra work out. But don't worry, there is one more thing- the hotter over all burn from the longer burn time and higher temperature will cause any unburned c5 molecules to coke onto the injector nozzle. It is attracted to the inconel, but cannot attach without the free radical, so it attaches to the now coldest metal in its vicinity inside the precup.
Next problem is easy- lubricity. Like to lubricate you ip or injectors? How about anti lubrication from the gasoline passing by. Think ulsd is a tiny bit worse than old good diesel, there is a lubricity scale that I cannot remember the proper term for tonight, but iirc the difference between the two is about 1800%. Yup, rub ulsd on your finger, feel it oily, that's good. Now rub gas on it see how dry your finger is and all that diesel is gone? You have to dump in a lot of lube to oil down that gas.
Diesel fuel. Talk to a chemical engineer and it is referred to as a "c number" a carbon count in the hydrocarbon chain that if a word to encompass all the diesel fuels #1 through #6 is used, it is called PARAFFINS. Paraffin wax is the way you probably here that word the most. Diesel fuel is technically a wax, of specific carbon count. When your fuel "gets waxy" it is wax, always is. The "higher wax content" is simply more longer chain molecules allowed into the mix.
Heat separates the shortest chains first leaving the longer chains to the last. The more heat the more viscous. Heat is the answer at the refinery and your engine.
The short chain molecules of the gas poured in with the long chain molecules of the waxes causes the viscosity to improve as long as the short chain can get physically in between the medium and long chained units. As soon as enough settling occurs the gas will float to the top, and the diesel will regain the heavier attributes.
When a heavier slack wax content is in use, your longer chain molecules are being added to the fuel, but you are well past the point of gaining a better cetane rating. In fact, the rating is beyond the bell curve and actually falls at this point. The refineries are simply selling more junk to increase the profit, currently because they are losing their cash to the low oil prices. So what happens is easier gelling, lower power, lower mpg, more pollution to your engine and the sky. The ASTM has a range in the standard, and they push it to the limit, sometimes surpassing it on this. ALL refineries do it, it's just some are better at getting away with it, and different crude can handle the cut better.
The heavier waxes that you can manage to split out this way are now going to settle at the bottom of your tank and will make their way to the filter plugging it sooner. Think what passes through a filter easier, racing fuel vs gear oil.
The only current success of using both fuel is the redesigned engine that uses two separate injectors by U of Wisconsin-Madison, firing at different times, burning an 80/20 ratio. Their biggest problem is still coking the diesel injector, and desire of the piston top to grow a new port in its top. Oh, and the over heating projection problems. What might be a
-get you buy fix- is one of a few holy grails in the oil industry, you know the guys who spend more money in tease arch than any other three industries combined...
Why more power adding propane in a Diesel engine but not gasoline, it is after all more powerful? Because the two fuels are not inhibiting each other in the travel to burn. Gas ruins the burn of diesel and visa versa. Gas can put a hole
In a piston, bend a rod, burn a valve, etc. buy simple bad luck of the draw. Rare, but go ahead and read more about those vw owners online. I have friends at the vw dealership. Not a quarter goes by that one of the new kids went for the mix in quest of cheaper fuel, and got to find out what warranties don't cover. Idk why vw is higher than other dealerships, they all get one occasionally. But the vw crowd gets some bad info out there somewhere.
Working for 76 fuels when I did, we had some drivers good up and mix, only once in a great while did the engine get yanked. But it was there, once in a while. 30 gallons x $3 = $90 saved, or 30x3=-1 engine, once in a while. IMHO bad odds. I say it all the time "I lived in Vegas most my life, I know when to not gamble."
For those in the know...
This week at work- redesigning a distillation column reboiler to pre fire & post fire feedstock, while simultaneously recracking c-65 through c72 chain wax without a splitter. Saudi kings past and present want American research to slow or stop, we redoubled ours.
Are the any fracking guys out there familiar with the water problem, please pm me...
This is my 2cents, and intended to educate anyone interested, and to make WarWagon laugh more.
RI Chevy
What is the best for waxing or gelling? Heat. No substitute.
Pull out a little in a glass jar and hold up to the light. Any cloudiness or particulates? If particulates, you could just be plugging the filter. If cloudy, you are hitting you cloud point, the fuel is too cold. If refineries could raise the cloud point by just adding a bit of less profitable gasoline, they would do it in the interest of money. They don't, instead the distillation column and splitter is operated under different parameters at an added expense.
Idk a brand or type of additive that can solve this or other cold issues any better than hear say. If the only answer is gas, then I don't know what to say, roll the dice? I'd rather not after what I've learned.
Gas is rated by octane, diesel by cetane. They are effectively opposites. If octane goes up, the cetane has to go down. There is very little actual cetane (1-hexadecane technically) in diesel fuel, 50% burn rate is the peak of performance, and the term cetane is a burn rate percentage based off of actual burn rate from real cetane the hydrocarbon. When your cetane rating falls, your burn efficiency drops, so it ignites later and burns slower sooting more and leaving behind 2% more carbon per cetane number dropped for the first 2/3 of the scale. So if you only run a 10 lower cetane rated diesel with no other changes- you have 20 times dirtier chamber and engine oil, along with 10% less power and efficiency.
Now the two non mixed fuels together. Putting them I one container does not mix them. The are separate on a molecular level as well as a gravitational level. Yes they will look mixed but you have to think molecular level here. The "lights" in the gas don't average down, and the "heavies" in the diesel don't lighten up, now there is just a fatter "middle", with a longer over all range.
Lower cetane with no external ignition heat (spark plug) causes advanced & multiple detonation during each cycle. The extra knock/ping you here from gas in the diesel is the gasoline separating from the diesel in the cylinder, burning of first at a flashpoint way to low for the compression. Then post burning (yes a second flame front) when the heat is high enough to ignite the sub-naphtha (c10 & possibly c11). However the flame having stared in two locations has to collide causing impact #3 in the cylinder. Now the diesel fuel has not gotten the full compression at the normal time it does and actually starts its ignition a little late - but at least it is the forth and final bang in the cylinder trying to shove the piston down since it is now retarded timing will go easily. That is why you see it smoke a tad more (a more whitened smoke) even if you add a little by mistake in the summer time. So a little burning fuel while certain valves are not closed get some extra work out. But don't worry, there is one more thing- the hotter over all burn from the longer burn time and higher temperature will cause any unburned c5 molecules to coke onto the injector nozzle. It is attracted to the inconel, but cannot attach without the free radical, so it attaches to the now coldest metal in its vicinity inside the precup.
Next problem is easy- lubricity. Like to lubricate you ip or injectors? How about anti lubrication from the gasoline passing by. Think ulsd is a tiny bit worse than old good diesel, there is a lubricity scale that I cannot remember the proper term for tonight, but iirc the difference between the two is about 1800%. Yup, rub ulsd on your finger, feel it oily, that's good. Now rub gas on it see how dry your finger is and all that diesel is gone? You have to dump in a lot of lube to oil down that gas.
Diesel fuel. Talk to a chemical engineer and it is referred to as a "c number" a carbon count in the hydrocarbon chain that if a word to encompass all the diesel fuels #1 through #6 is used, it is called PARAFFINS. Paraffin wax is the way you probably here that word the most. Diesel fuel is technically a wax, of specific carbon count. When your fuel "gets waxy" it is wax, always is. The "higher wax content" is simply more longer chain molecules allowed into the mix.
Heat separates the shortest chains first leaving the longer chains to the last. The more heat the more viscous. Heat is the answer at the refinery and your engine.
The short chain molecules of the gas poured in with the long chain molecules of the waxes causes the viscosity to improve as long as the short chain can get physically in between the medium and long chained units. As soon as enough settling occurs the gas will float to the top, and the diesel will regain the heavier attributes.
When a heavier slack wax content is in use, your longer chain molecules are being added to the fuel, but you are well past the point of gaining a better cetane rating. In fact, the rating is beyond the bell curve and actually falls at this point. The refineries are simply selling more junk to increase the profit, currently because they are losing their cash to the low oil prices. So what happens is easier gelling, lower power, lower mpg, more pollution to your engine and the sky. The ASTM has a range in the standard, and they push it to the limit, sometimes surpassing it on this. ALL refineries do it, it's just some are better at getting away with it, and different crude can handle the cut better.
The heavier waxes that you can manage to split out this way are now going to settle at the bottom of your tank and will make their way to the filter plugging it sooner. Think what passes through a filter easier, racing fuel vs gear oil.
The only current success of using both fuel is the redesigned engine that uses two separate injectors by U of Wisconsin-Madison, firing at different times, burning an 80/20 ratio. Their biggest problem is still coking the diesel injector, and desire of the piston top to grow a new port in its top. Oh, and the over heating projection problems. What might be a
-get you buy fix- is one of a few holy grails in the oil industry, you know the guys who spend more money in tease arch than any other three industries combined...
Why more power adding propane in a Diesel engine but not gasoline, it is after all more powerful? Because the two fuels are not inhibiting each other in the travel to burn. Gas ruins the burn of diesel and visa versa. Gas can put a hole
In a piston, bend a rod, burn a valve, etc. buy simple bad luck of the draw. Rare, but go ahead and read more about those vw owners online. I have friends at the vw dealership. Not a quarter goes by that one of the new kids went for the mix in quest of cheaper fuel, and got to find out what warranties don't cover. Idk why vw is higher than other dealerships, they all get one occasionally. But the vw crowd gets some bad info out there somewhere.
Working for 76 fuels when I did, we had some drivers good up and mix, only once in a great while did the engine get yanked. But it was there, once in a while. 30 gallons x $3 = $90 saved, or 30x3=-1 engine, once in a while. IMHO bad odds. I say it all the time "I lived in Vegas most my life, I know when to not gamble."
For those in the know...
This week at work- redesigning a distillation column reboiler to pre fire & post fire feedstock, while simultaneously recracking c-65 through c72 chain wax without a splitter. Saudi kings past and present want American research to slow or stop, we redoubled ours.
Are the any fracking guys out there familiar with the water problem, please pm me...
btfarm
America First!
Nice Will!
- Staff
- #32
Excellent response Will. Any thoughts about the fuel additives? In your opinion, are they worth it, and do they work? Specifically, Power Service and Stanadyne.
Another question, I hear alot about guys adding kerosene to diesel fuel in the winter, any thoughts on that?
Another question, I hear alot about guys adding kerosene to diesel fuel in the winter, any thoughts on that?
Last edited:
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
Something to keep in mind here is that gas, 911, etc are supposed to be "get you out of a jam" fixes. I don't think any of them would be good for the engine or fuel system used regularly. That being said about 100k miles ago I was driving some friends around AK and they wanted to buy me fuel so I pulled up to the pumps and got sidetracked while they filled it. Yup you guessed it GAS. Truck ran fine for about 5 miles most of which was up a pretty good grade, turned into a pullout to check out the scenery and turned off the truck. Got back in awhile later and it wouldn't start. Towed it home and I did manage to get it started again, took it out for a drive (including some WOT runs) and it just didn't want to run right. So I ended up pulling the IP and the shop that looked at it called me up and said GAS, so I checked the fuel in the tank and sure enough it was. It had to be at least a 75-80 mix of gas to diesel. Drained the tank, which I used up by putting a few gallons at a time in my wifes burb. So even running a very heavy ratio of gas it didn't hurt my rig. Did I just get lucky? Maybe but I think you'll find most of those people who had issues were running odd mixes regularly. I thought Will's comment on the fuels separating instead of mixing explained a lot about why 911 doesn't seem to work very long. Oh and Will doesn't need to worry about my feelings I'm a big boy. Even talked to him on the phone tonight about something else.
btfarm
America First!
The electronics in a Duramax powered truck probably wouldn't be quite so forgiving as an older 6.5 rig.
- Staff
- #35
Something very odd to note. I talked to some guys from National Grid Power that supplies most of New Englands electricity and natural gas. The guys who drive their big trucks state that they add Diesel 911 to every tank all winter. They state that the mechanics suggested that to the company, so they do it. Their exhaust from their trucks has a very distinctive odor. Very different than my Duramax. I guess they don't gel or wax. Trucks pretty much stay running constantly all day every day.
- Staff
- #36
if you notice, I did greatly before the new ammonia trucks started taking over the roadways. Each brand of truck has there own exhaust smell. The powerstroke, cummins, and duramax each have there own distinct exhaust smell. Even if the Diesel came from the same station or not. The new trucks that run def all smell like ammonia. Too me anyways.
Hope you get the fuel issues worked out. This winter has been brutal and it is not even over with yet.
Hope you get the fuel issues worked out. This winter has been brutal and it is not even over with yet.
btfarm
America First!
911 is an emulsifier that lets water through - past the separator. It's only for emergencies. That's been discussed many times before. I don't want any water through my fuel system but if I get some at a fuel stop I want it separated by my Parker/Racor coalescing filter before it gets to the pump.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Kerosene is a much better choice, but it would take a bigger ratio. Yeah the 911 and other additives that increase hydroscopic ratio will help you get out in an emergency, but is hard on ip and injectors from the water. Emergency only -just like starting fluid, If an emergency you don't care about a hole in a piston. If you are thinking about the cost of an engine then you are not dealing with a real emergency.
Now if you had a fuel heater that took the fuel up to 195, then went to the separator, 100% of that water will be gone before it gets anywhere near the ip, so 911 to get it out of the tank and to the heater hurts nothing, The flashpoint from what I was told by their tech support is 5 degrees higher than diesel, so it would burn out part way into the flame front existing.
The old trick of isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol is the worst combination of all- messes up the burn rates and pulls the water all the way through the injectors.
The additives as lubricants are wonderful for extending life of the ip. but oil is thicker than fuel, and will worsen the gelling problem. Only a tiny bit but it does make it a touch thicker. The problem is which ones to use by what is available in your area. I am mighty fond of used engine oil down to 2 or 3 microns. There was that study done before that thank goodness taught a lot of people why I hate mystery marvel beach sand so much. A filter head and 1 filter a year is so cheap idk why more people don't use it. I am hoping to pick up my $350 centrifuge this year, send it through a few times and 1.75 micron should be no problem.
I really don't get why all you guys that live in cold country that require a good block heater or adding a oil heater don't all run the big fuel heaters.
Now if you had a fuel heater that took the fuel up to 195, then went to the separator, 100% of that water will be gone before it gets anywhere near the ip, so 911 to get it out of the tank and to the heater hurts nothing, The flashpoint from what I was told by their tech support is 5 degrees higher than diesel, so it would burn out part way into the flame front existing.
The old trick of isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol is the worst combination of all- messes up the burn rates and pulls the water all the way through the injectors.
The additives as lubricants are wonderful for extending life of the ip. but oil is thicker than fuel, and will worsen the gelling problem. Only a tiny bit but it does make it a touch thicker. The problem is which ones to use by what is available in your area. I am mighty fond of used engine oil down to 2 or 3 microns. There was that study done before that thank goodness taught a lot of people why I hate mystery marvel beach sand so much. A filter head and 1 filter a year is so cheap idk why more people don't use it. I am hoping to pick up my $350 centrifuge this year, send it through a few times and 1.75 micron should be no problem.
I really don't get why all you guys that live in cold country that require a good block heater or adding a oil heater don't all run the big fuel heaters.
NVW
Well-Known Member
Up here Will, If you use current winter blends of fuel, gelling isn't a problem in my experience. I had one tank a couple years ago where I had bulk fuel from early Oct. give me a problem in Dec. Topping the bulk tank up with winter fuel solved it.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
only time I've ever had issues is from a rig/equipment that had summer fuel we tried to use in the winter. stations are pretty aggressive on the no1 use.