Good work is expensive

[Scholioso]

Hey guys. Some of ya'll know how big projects end up costing big money. My 96 k3500 has been getting a 12v cummins heart transplant. Unfortunately, I can't weld. So I took the truck to a good reputable exhaust shop. It had to be done. I can't just dump smoke onto the firewall.

Well, here I sit, with a 2' piece of bent pipe & a $720 bill, wondering how hot that firewall really would have gotten.

Oh well. I screwed up & didnt get an estimate or quote before agreeing to have it done. I was in a rush, as I'm also in the process of moving.

Does this seem like a reasonable bill? To be fair, they did a lot of work. I read somewhere that if doing a cummins swap into a gmt400 chassis, the Diamond Eye downpipe 220099 gets close. Well, apparently not close enough. According to the exhaust shop, the 4" pipe is also too big. He tried making it work, even cutting up "two 4" u bend tubes" trying to get it to work. Which he did. But recommended not using it as it was too close to the starter & he recommended downgrading to 3". We met in the middle at 3.5". According to the shop, the previous owner who had installed a 4" diamond eye exhaust for the original 6.5 engine did a really poor job. The muffler was resting on a crossmember, so they relocated that as well as fixed a few hangars.

So they did a lot of work, but dear lord I wasn't expecting that. The diamond eye downpipe was $80 shipped. I guess I've just never had to pay for true custom till now.

Moral of the story, if doing a gmt400 cummins swap, think of a few things like exhaust! The 4l80e adapter locates the starter to the passenger side which limits exhaust clearance! Also, 4" exhaust clearance with factory 12v exhaust manifold is not good! Not sure if the allison adapter has the starter on passenger or driver side.

Anyways, hope this helps someone.

 

[ak diesel driver]

WOW

 

[FellowTraveler]

Not sure if you read the thread on my build, I point out the 1st Gen Ram Cummins 2wd 4" mandril down-pipe is what s needed if the exhaust manifold is "center mount" after that a Cummins 4" cobra-head down-pipe makes the most of limited space.

Attached to the down pipe "a twist core type race muffler "shorty" works to eliminate drone then the 4" aftermarket exhaust is adapted to that, simple and cheap too.

 

[JayTheCPA]

While that bill is a tough pill to swallow, from the description of work it does sound about right.

As mentioned, being in a rush to git-er-done and not scoping the work likely played a large part in the cost.

Seems like the lesson learned here is to (as mentioned) get an estimate first. In this case, the estimate probably would have not changed the $720 bill, but at least it would have either eliminated the surprise factor, or you could have scoped the work back to just the downpipe and dealt with the rest later . . .


As a bonus though, it does appear that the shop actually corrected things, so the truck is now in a better place than when it went into the shop.


About the size of the downpipe, Yes, there is notation that 4" is a tad large for the space and most people go with 3" down and 4" back.

In terms of the project, there is one more thing that I would do at this point: wrap the downpipe. Reasoning is that there are components around the downpipe that really do not like that much heat (example: A/C components (if the truck has A/C)), but GM put them there anyway.

 

[Scholioso]

Not sure if you read the thread on my build, I point out the 1st Gen Ram Cummins 2wd 4" mandril down-pipe is what s needed if the exhaust manifold is "center mount" after that a Cummins 4" cobra-head down-pipe makes the most of limited space.

Attached to the down pipe "a twist core type race muffler "shorty" works to eliminate drone then the 4" aftermarket exhaust is adapted to that, simple and cheap too.

Ok so I read it in your thread! Yeah, that's the part number I got from diamond eye. It was for a 89 to 93 cummins, 2wd, 4" downpipe. I could not get it to align. I had to cut the 90 degree turbo elbow or start of the downpipe off, just to bolt it to the turbo. But it was wedged into the firewall. Melted some of the plastic factory firewall protection matte. The attached picture shows how it wouldn't line up. I tried bringing it over to bolt up, but it would hit the starter & not allow more movement.

As for the downpipe being wrapped, I'm skeptical. When I purchased my long tube headers for my corvette, they were wrapped from the previous owner. Doing research, I heard wraps should only be used on race only kinda vehicles as the wrap can cause damage if it gets wet. For this reason, I went & had the headers ceramic coated. I was thinking of having the downpipe ceramic coated as well. Thoughts?

 

[FellowTraveler]

Header wrap must be used over 1.7k+ degree ceramic paint to prevent rusting.

The Cummins can be canted for down-pipe clearance however; judging from the image you posted it looks to be installed further back than my install too.

 

[JayTheCPA]

Have not messed with wrap and only know what I have read from / talked about with others.

There are methods to seal the wrap a bit more. In the end, noting is a perfect seal, so something will get to the pipe (example: salt, etc . . .)

Ceramic is a good tool as it helps, but also has its limits. From what I can tell, even if I did ceramic on the inside and outside, I could still expect a range of 600 - 800*F radiating out of the pipe on hard pulls.

The direction I am going with a current project is based on inputs from Twisted Steel: ceramic the inside and apply insulation on the outside. At first I looked into wrap but decided to take a slightly different path with an Inconel shield. Based on that combination, am expecting ~200* F to radiate during hard pulls.

 

[Scholioso]

I suspect you used an aftermarket transmission adapter that placed the starter in the way of the down-pipe, or?
The Cummins looks to be further back than my install.

Correct. If I remember correctly, you decided to run the dodge transmission (47, 48 something re,rh, I cant remember). I chose to run the 4l80e due to not being able to fabricate at this time. Eventually I want to swap an allison in, but that's in the future.

The 4l80e adapter plate locates the starter to the passenger side. I looked, & the allison adapter locates the starter on the passenger side as well. Oh well. You live & learn I suppose.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Have not messed with wrap and only know what I have read from / talked about with others.

There are methods to seal the wrap a bit more. In the end, noting is a perfect seal, so something will get to the pipe (example: salt, etc . . .)

Ceramic is a good tool as it helps, but also has its limits. From what I can tell, even if I did ceramic on the inside and outside, I could still expect a range of 600 - 800*F radiating out of the pipe on hard pulls.

The direction I am going with a current project is based on inputs from Twisted Steel: ceramic the inside and apply insulation on the outside. At first I looked into wrap but decided to take a slightly different path with an Inconel shield. Based on that combination, am expecting ~200* F to radiate during hard pulls.

I've used header rap over ceramic paint and further sealed it w/hi-temp silicone w/o any issues and I live in a salty environment. Inconel steel is best but very expensive.
There are composite coatings used I the marine industry for exhaust systems too.
Another method is to get 1.7k thermal barrier made of aluminum mat backing and adhesive over the backing the fold it over and shape to whatever shape you need to make a thermal barrier/shield.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Correct. If I remember correctly, you decided to run the dodge transmission (47, 48 something re,rh, I cant remember). I chose to run the 4l80e due to not being able to fabricate at this time. Eventually I want to swap an allison in, but that's in the future.

The 4l80e adapter plate locates the starter to the passenger side. I looked, & the allison adapter locates the starter on the passenger side as well. Oh well. You live & learn I suppose.

Canting as well as shifting the Cummins to the D/S is always an option as is oval pipes like SpinTec makes to clear the starter.

The header wrap on my down-pipe actually touches the firewall because its triple wrapped and the is no difference in temps where it touches and or on the rest of the firewall.

 

[FellowTraveler]

I can't figure why I can't edit or delete the extra picture.

 

[Will L.]

Adapting in things like engine swaps is always very expensive. It becomes an easier pull to swallow for the diy person. But to get an amazing custom engine swap is going to take the skillset of someone who in a professional setting, you would be paying over $100 per hour for.
Many Hummer owners out the 6.5 for a cummins or a dmax. If someone were to announce they paid $50,000 for it, what would be your instinctive response?
In the Hummer world a flurry of “oh no, thats gonna suck!” and “holy crap! how many years and 40k just to fix that hack job is about to happen!” are going to be the most common responses. 65k is closer to average btw.

Not being able to fabricate your own exhaust, wanting custom, and going for the premium sized unit- top dollar will be paid at any shop. My guess is this became an sll day event and back-n-forth of you and the shop after multiple attempts to finalize on what you have. That being the case- a $720 bill is not out of line for the shop.

You paid them to learn how to do something custom. The only thing that makes a conversion affordable is diy.

Yes an estimate would have helped you in the cost by setting an upper limit of how good do you want to make it.

As for heat mitigation- does wrapping exhaust cause it to wear faster, especially in the presence of moisture? Of course. But to be honest- it is pay to play. Dont coat, dont wrap and save some money by not replacing the exhaust pipe 10% sooner. But instead you will loose performance, loose mpg, and ruin other components that you will have to buy much sooner like starters, wiring, cab insulation. Then also have to deal with hot foot running down the hiway and more breakdowns and tow bills from things like an overheated starter dying in the middle of a road trip.

A different option is paying even more money to have the exhaust built out of heavier materials that will take longer to deteriorate. But still just more pay to play. You have to decide is it better to replace the exhaust because it wore out sooner from taking the abuse of the heat, vs the other truck components and their cost.

 

[Stoney]

Not going to lie if I was handed that bill I probably would have blown more gaskets than my truck does..... Would have been cheaper to teach yourself how to weld and buy a pipe bender..lol

 

[Scholioso]

I haven't actually paid for it yet. Between flight school, this project, the Air Force, & the move, I just don't have the money right now to pay that. Didn't expect it to be anything more than $500. Not sure what I'm gonna tell the shop. My commander is friends with the owner of the shop as well. So I'm really stuck in a bind as I don't wanna piss off the shop. Then they go back & tell my commander & bam, stuck with detailing bathrooms or something. Soooooo yeah.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Spin Tech is best way to go with issues like starter clearance their transition 4" round to oval to round is the way to do it.

Images help when seeking advice on conversion issues and the best part someone else has had the same issues you will generally run into.

Careful w/CO as he makes the rules.

 

[JayTheCPA]

I haven't actually paid for it yet. Between flight school, this project, the Air Force, & the move, I just don't have the money right now to pay that. . . . My commander is friends with the owner of the shop as well. . . .

Ah, in that case . . .

Consider politely asking the Commander for guidance on the situation.

The last thing anybody wants is for the shop to approach your CO with a delinquent bill as (as mentioned) that will get you 'friends' and 'help' that you do not want . . .

By going to the Commander first, it has a better opportunity for working something out that keeps all those 'friends' and 'help' away. Well, it still might invite some of them, but it will likely go much better than the other way around

 

[NVW]

Let the shop know and pay what you can afford now, with them knowing the rest will come when funds allow.

 

[Will L.]

I agree with both options, Either:

ask CO his opinion how to approach the shop, provided you have an acceptable relationship with the CO.

or talk to shop owner explaining that from your knowledge someone has an exhaust component built, it is normally a $300-$350 price range (?) so you were expecting that.
Admit you should have asked for an estimate, and that you agree you will pay the full amount of the bill. However not expecting it to be double, you simply can only pay half now, and will pay the rest later- giving the date which you can pay.

If a credit card was an option, it could be used. That said, him floating your inability to pay isn’t to be expected by him. So fair interest payment should be expected.

It is normal for a shop to keep the vehicle until paid in full and lien then sell it if needed. Most states have a 7 day after completion payment time line where they can charge average towing yard daily storage fees after the initial time is expired which ranges from $20-$60 per day.


I have had trucks towed back to my yard and could have charged hundreds of dollars if I chose to added onto unpaid bills. Local laws here had the rate set at $50 per day. There was a truck we repaired a flat bed and liftgate on, bill total was $275. This individual chose to leave it and said we would get tired of it in the way, and call him when we decided to lower thr bill to $100. Over 5 months later, he showed up to get it after I sent the certified letter it would be auctioned off. I had an additional 3 hours labor (charging my lowest hourly rate of $50 per hour) in having had to move it around and in office time for dealing with it. So his new bill was $425, and I would wave the over $6,000 in storage fees and the couple hundred dollars or so in interst if he would agree to bring a written, and give verbally, an apology to my staff for the inconvenience he may have caused. Mind you, this guy was an absolute jerk how he spoke to everyone in out company. So I made it uncomfortable for him. I had another that owed about $3000 and simply could not afford it. So I released the vehicle after signing on as lein holder to title, and let them make payments. That cashflow loss had impact, so I should have charged interest, but didn’t. Could have kept and even sold vehicles but didn’t. Because they were up front with me as soon as they realized the problem. One just playing hardball, the other like yours- expecting cheap when it was not.

After 2 situations, I always gave an estimate even if verbal was all. The law says customers need to request one, and doing a written one everytime raises costs.

The overall price you paid sounds high, but if they repaired part of the old system and had to trial and error building yours- maybe isn’t. Sounds like just a bad shopping experience really.

 

[Scholioso]

I appreciate ya'lls feedback. I did rectify the situation. I spoke with the owner who is a very nice guy. I told him my situation, apologized, told him everything. He goes "oh, ok. Well, you wanna come check it out, it looks really good?!"

Made me laugh. Dude was super nice. I will definitely go back. Just now I know what I'm in for. Welds are good, everything clears by a mile.

I didn't have to get my CO involved. Thank god. I was able to pay in full, borrowed some money & miraculously got paid early. So the truck is now back home & I've been ironing out small details!

Thank you all for your help & guidance!

 

[JayTheCPA]

Great news!

It is always best to proactively work a situation as opposed to watching the grenade spin on the table!