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Flywheel replacement starter not meshing properly/ hard starts hot.

W

WildWilly

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Morning View, KY
I have a 93 6.5 TD that needed the flywheel replaced. I just installed it and diagnosed it's failure due to the gears not sinking in deep enough from the starter to the flywheel. Shimming the starter only pulls it further from the flywheel. Any ideas, maybe I need to trim the top of the starter housing?

Secondly, the truck starts within 3 to 5 seconds the very first time I start it for the day, after it is warm it refuses to start. <-- that's another reason the flywheel went as well but not THE MAIN reason. My fuel filter is new, OPS is good, electric pump is running & pumping fuel and the truck runs great when it's running. I haven't ran a compression test yet but it isn't smoking while cranking it when it doesn't want to start while warm. It seems like a fuel problem to me, therefore I haven't checked compression. I'm sure someone has ran into this before, does it sound like the injectors may not be popping or maybe the IP plate warped? Any ideas what to do next?

Next problem is the shaft on the wastegate is worn out & I don't like the spring load that is supposed to work the gate. What are you all doing to improve the WG? Can I repair the wear in the shaft or does it need replaced? I have another complete 6.5 from a non turbo truck, a 95 P30 that has the same IP and TPS so swapping parts isn't going to cost me alot of cash but I don't want to spend countless hours playing guess your best. I've searched quite a bit & found similiar problems but the starting problems I found were for newer IP's with a PMD being the culprit, that's just not my case. I know there are several folks here that are pretty darn slick when it comes to the 6.5 and it's always nice to have a few brains working together.
 
You want to think about a truck that is 20 years old and unk miles will have odd things wear out. The starter stamped "no shim" and the starter bolts make a difference. Make sure you have the proper bolts and if in doubt get new ones from the dealer. Make sure you have the rear brace on the starter - it may be missing. This brace keeps the starter from kicking out and busting the block at the starter bolt holes. There are some threads on here where others have made this part. The flywheel is specific to 6.2/6.5 engines as well as the starters for number of teeth and size. Don't use gas engine parts as the starter will try and depart the engine...

The hot start problem is common for the mechanical IP's. First you need a fuel pressure gauge to make sure you have pressure from the lift pump. Then you put a clear return line from the IP fuel return to the rail the injectors also return fuel to. This is so you can look for air. You want to make sure the lift pump is giving the IP fuel under pressure as this will cause hot start issues. So will air in the system. Some things that would cause hot start issues would be a plugged tank sock, last ditch screen in the fuel filter manager - it's on the center post you see with the filter out.

Last after verifying the above pressure/air issues you take cold water and pour it on the rotor section of the IP - where the injector lines come out. You do this when you have the hot start issue and see if it starts faster.

Are you pushing the throttle before you start the engine? You need to even cold to set the cold fast idle solenoid. Hot you can pres the throttle to help open a sticky metering valve and give it more fuel to overcome a leaky worn IP rotor.

If the cold water trick works your IP is at the end of it's useful life as the head and rotor have worn out. You can swap 6.5 DB2 IP's and by changing the TPS you can even use a 6.2 IP. 6.5 and 6.2 IP's have a different TPS that will work with the same ECM in your truck. 0-5v but the degrees of throttle shaft rotation on the IP's are different 6.5 vs. 6.2.

You will want to turn the fuel up 1/4 turn from the NA IP to use on the turbo engine.

The GM3 turbo is a paperweight and maybe worth something for scrap metal. You could leave it alone as it is really just fine in regard to WG shaft clearance - they all are loose to handle -40 to 1500 EGT. The WG can gives you 6 PSI and the turbo is crap after 14 PSI and/or 2200RPM. There are several better turbo options to allow the engine to get out of it's own way after 2200 RPM. In the hills you have this will put a smile on your face. I have a 1993 with a 4.10 rear end and an auto. I run 1/2 turn on the IP screw with the A Team Turbo, the only full kit turbo offered for the 6.5. (There are other turbo's out there as well.) Stop light to stop light you would take me with the GM3. But the first mountain pass I will be turning 3400 RPM, towing, and sucking doors off. At 3400 RPM your GM3 is choking the engine as has since 2200 RPM. You will be doing 33 MPH and I will be doing 55 MPH. :agreed:

Here is more reading on the A Team Turbo:

http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?35650-1993-DB2-Dyno-run-with-ATT
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?35198-Att-dyno-results
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?36278-BD-Quick-Spool-Valve-Install-with-Pics
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?32658-Results-of-using-an-A-Team-Turbo
 
Yes she has got a few years on her. lol It has 213,000 miles on it & the top end was rebuilt around 150,000. I made sure that the support brace is in place but it's not so much that issue as it is the teeth barely touch the flywheel. I have 2 motors, 3 flywheels, and 2 starters that I've checked with each other trying to see why they just won't mesh right. I did purchase GM bolts for the starter before I done my swap to eliminate any questions of them being right or wrong.

I done a complete swap from gas to diesel & while doing so I opened the fuel tank to make sure it was clean. My non turbo motor always started within 3 to 5 seconds of cranking but I noticed the head gaskets starting to seep a little and decided to save up some funds to just go thru the motor to have a spare. I will check the fuel pressure but you brought up a good point about the screen in the fuel filter manager because when I went to replace the filter, there wasn't one in it so this could've let debris into the screen but it seems like it would be rough to start all the time if this were the case? It's worth checking tho.

I have tried starting it hot with WOT & several different variables but it didn't make any difference. I've also added the push button to my glow plug relay, not that I need it now but one day I will. lol About pouring cold water on the IP, I thought that could cause the head to warp from cooling it down so quickly? But unless I find another problem, what do I have to lose right?

If I find the IP to be bad & replace it with my NA IP, you mentioned turning it up 1/4 of a turn. Is this done without removing any plates or welch plugs? I've never done more than just replace, time, and bleed the IP but I've heard of turning them up, where is the screw? Lol I'm assuming that it needs turned up to compensate for the fuel consumption due to the turbo?

It's great to know I don't really have to worry about my WG? Should I be concerned with the dummy spring or the gate opening or not? I have noticed that my turbo is starting to leak some oil so it might be a good time to look into that setup you have. I love it but like you said, it's not gonna get you up a hill too fast & then you're starting to run warm by the time ya get there. Nice stats on the dyno too :) that sounds pretty wicked! I'll have to wait a few years before I can get my toys the way I want them. I'm raising my 5 kids by myself so they cost more than my toys at the moment.

I appreciate the info WarWagon and I'll get back with you on my findings. I have to get my truck goin cause my kids fight when we have to go somewhere! I think it's because my other car is a 91 camaro! Lmbo We're like sardines in that thing.
 
I want to update a little bit here. I ended up having to actually file the starter surface to get my teeth to mesh with the flywheel. This works great & sounds good cranking. I did have to file almost 1/8 inch or maybe a little more to get a good mesh but I figured you could easily shim the starter if you cut too much away. The starting issue I was having with a hot start seems to be much better! The only thing I've done was drove the truck extensively but also removed the large plastic engine cover from the top. Maybe the cover itself was holding too much heat on the IP and making it hard to start. No matter there is still a problem but I may have to put the shield back on to heat the IP up like before. I don't want to head out of town just to have this thing not start for me. I've tested everything Warwagon mentioned and have come to the conclusion that either A: my IP rotor is warped & not starting while hot or B: my fuel shut off is sticking from time to time while hot? Not sure still 100% but will keep you all posted. Thank you again Warwagon
 
I also wanted to mention that I installed my new flywheel in about 2 & 1/2 hours by just sliding the tranny back far enough to wrench out my flywheel bolts. This is a 4X4 truck and I wanted to let people know you can R&R the flywheel without a lot of hassle and without removing the tranny. I didn't remove the crossmember, just took out the tranny mount & front driveshaft & crossover. The tranny lines had room to flex back enough without damaging them in any way, therefore I wasn't laying in transmission fluid & it wasn't dripping in my face. lol
 
These engines have Turbo Power covers? :idea:


Oh yeah! Those were the first 4 bolts to come off and NEVER get put back! The cover has some fleabay value. Vanity is an option left off and worn off my truck. :rolleyes5:

I have the hot start issue on my IP but that is from bad wet fuel. It is on the to do list to change out. Cold water helped start it so I know it is bad.

You may want to pull each fuse and clean the contacts. Check the pink wire on the IP and clean that connector as well. one of the top IP cover bolts is the ground. Quick and dirty way to check a hot start issue is to stop cranking and leave the key on. Pull the pink wire and listen for the click. No click means no power or bad solenoid. Some have swapped the green cold start advance wire only to have the engine suddenly stall when it gets hot and the cold start switch opens.

You better have the newer self limiting glow plugs before you try the GP override as the factory units will burn out. GP use will help hot start issues from a worn IP.

Cranking RPM is critical to start the truck. You need 100 RPM cold and 150 RPM hot for it to start. Starters, batteries, and battery cables matter. The positive battery cables corrode internally. That starter has issues/wrong written all over it or maybe the block corner was repaired? Not normal to have to shave it. I assume this is an auto as the manual trans starter has a different nosecone design.

Lots on here regarding cooling upgrades.
 
WarWagon said:
I assume this is an auto as the manual trans starter has a different nosecone design.
Click to expand...

This question is a bit of a hijack, but since you mentioned it. (If you feel more comfortable PMing me so as to not take this thread too far off track go ahead and do so)

Can you tell me what the difference between the auto and manual nosecone is?

I'm collecting parts to put a 6.2 into my Toyota FJ40 Landcruiser and am going with a Ranger OD and Toy manual tranny. I've read that any older GM bellhousing will work, and that not all will work, and that it needs to be a 6.2/6.5 manual bellhousing, due to starter not fitting. I'm needing to know what is the correct BH.

Don
 
The starter nosecone is all but missing on the MT trucks. The Powermaster aftermarket starter does not have a nose cone at all to be able to work on both and be a heck of a lot easier to put in. So the Auto trucks have a bigger nosecone that covers more of the starter gear.
 
Well the truck has been starting fairly easy without alot of cranking so I never really had a reason to try the cold water yet. I now have another issue, I drove it for about 1 hour and shut it off after letting it idle for 3 minutes to cool. When I went to leave an hour later, it just went KLUNK! I removed the starter after trying to turn the engine over from the top side to make sure it wasn't a starter issue but this thing will NOT turn either direction. I pulled the 4 glow plugs on the drivers side but not the passenger because it was too hot plus I didn't have the socket needed to get under the turbo. I thought maybe an injector leaked and filled up a cylinder with fuel. This don't seem to be the case. Had it towed home and am currently waiting for the weather to cool off so I can check into it deeper. I'm about sick of this thing already since just installing the motor & trans back in may, it's been broke down more than I have driven it. I'm gonna pull the torque convertor bolts to see if it spins but it really seems like a piston seized in this thing. Any problems like this from others? Also is there one good reason for me to leave the flywheel cover on this? I'm tired of removing the crossover pipe to pull the cover so next time it comes off, it will stay off unless it has a significant use. Thanks
 
So I've been pondering the idea of just going ahead and rebuilding my other 6.5
What exactly do I need to turn 1/4 of a turn on my 6.5NA IP? Other than that, I'll be good to go with a fresh overhaul so long as the cylinders & everything is good. Any suggestions for the rebuild like certain gaskets or rings to use? I'd like to build it to last.
 
I wanted to update this thread a bit. The motor has been inspected and all is well. There are some very small stress cracks in the combustion chambers that are presumably safe to run this way. The block was manufactured in 1998 and I found out it only has right at 25,000 miles on it after being replaced as new. I have pretty much everything taken care of except I'd like to know which screw to turn 1/4 of a turn from the NA pump. Also, should I remove the Bosch NA injectors & install the ones from my TD and what should I use to seal the new head bolts? Studs are out of my price range while raising 4 kids on my own. Should I leave the Felpro gaskets dry? I'm so ready to get this thing back on the road! I am currently "Feeding the Beast" any other mods while it's apart? I don't care about better or faster performance at this point, I just want to drive my truck...... lol
 
Search youtube for turning up the IP on a 6.2/6.5, there are several vids that show & tell. If your injectors are doing good I would leave them, if not then have them rebuilt local and have the pop pressure set at around 2100 -2300psi. The stock head studs are a one time use item, they are called "TTY" (tork to yield), once torked down and removed, throw them away and get new, new isn't very expensive for the bolts and they have sealer on them already, they can be found on fleebay and other places. Good luck with it...
 
Thanks alot, I found a video and it was pretty choppy so I'm thinking I'll do a vid while turning mine up for better clarity. I have new head bolts already and my question about the NA injectors was that the NA injectors are set at 1800psi pop and TD are from 2100 to 2300psi pop. I have both sets & all are fine but should I use the ones from my turbo motor?
 
Injector length makes a difference as NA 6.2's have long body injectors. Pop pressure is higher for turbo injectors for a reason. Use the higher pop pressure esp if you are going to go over factory boost. How many miles on the injectors as they only last 100K before they need to be rebuilt.

Did you find out what locked up your engine? I have had starters do the clunk thing and be a bad starter. -Just saying.

Top cover through the governor/throttle shaft or side access cover to turn up the fuel. Both are just as hard, but, less things to play with on the side cover.
 
I haven't pulled my locked up motor yet but the starter was removed and unfortunately was not the problem. I'm not sure if the new long block 98 6.5NA came with injectors but I have a new set of bosch that I'll have the pop checked before I install them. I don't plan on cranking up the boost, I'd just be happy with a running, reliable 6.5 TD. I currently have the heads off so I think it will be easy enough to remove the top cover to turn up my pump. I'm assuming that 1/4 of a turn clockwise is the way and amount I need to turn it? Hoping to get this together and have a reliable motor for years to come. I only wish the head studs were within reach for me but I just need to get this going. Hoping to have it together and running before next weekend. We have some local trail rides coming up & this truck pulls my jeep around. I have learned so much from this site about a 6.5, it kind of makes me feel like a pro with these! Lol. I'm sure that I NOW know much more than your every day mechanic on them, don't get me wrong, I was born under the hood of a car & have worked on heavy equipment all my life but the 6.5 is a motor all in it's own category.
 
If you are not cranking up the boost DO NOT turn the fuel up! All it will do is smoke. I already tried this and ordered a Turbomaster to clear up the smoke. Then and only then did I get more power running 14 PSI vs the factory 6 PSI.

You do not want to be smoking pushing this engine hard towing.
 
The pump is from my NA motor and it was my understanding that it needs to be turned up 1/4 of a turn to run it with a turbo. If this isn't true then I won't bother the pump but I thought the 1/4 turn compensated for the turbo being added.
 
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