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Ds4 on Ford IDI?

8

88 Ford

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San Diego, CA
I know the Chevy pumps spin the opposite way from Ford pumps, but is it possible to make the DS4 spin the opposite way? Also from what I have read is the crank sensor used is pretty specific to the 6.5, is there a way to adapt it to the Ford IDI crank? I haven't really seen what the cover the sensor sits in looks like or what the pick up for it looks like but is that possible at all to adapt easily.

As for the rest, it shouldn't be overly terrible but will be a lot of work. I will probably try an OBD1 if I am able to proceed with it. I do have some schematics for all the computer stuff and sensors as well. If everything works out with that stuff, I hope to find a way to make the pump push more fuel. But that is a big IF it works. Anyway, if anyone has any ideas as far as the conversion would go, your suggestions and knowledge would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.
 
Also I forgot to ask, has anyone developed any mods for the pump that is public knowledge? I know Heath Diesel has the Merlin Pump but I haven't read what exactly they do to get the extra fuel. I do wonder if the cam ring from a Db2 can be swapped? I have seen that suggested before and that person thought it might push more fuel that way? What all do you guys think?
 
Sounds like a lot of complications, most switch from the DS4 to a DB2 to get rid of the electronics.
 
I think the Ford pumps are overall bigger physically aren't they? The housing, rotor, plungers, and cam ring???

What is your idea to flow more fuel? I am no pump mechanic but took apart a DS4 pump out of an abundance of curiosity and have the pieces in a box. There did not appear to be whole lot of room left. If I can show something let me know.
 
There would be a lot of complications for sure. I'm not sure it'll even work to be honest. I'm just kicking the idea around at this point and doing research.

I believe you are correct about the physical size difference. I didn't even think about that to be honest. I'll need to figure it out once I get one in my hands and compare them. If something had to be made as far as mounting goes, that might be possible as well.

As for more capability out of the pump goes, I would see what R&D Performance could do with it (if he would be willing). He does awesome things with Db2 and Db4 pumps and possibly could apply some of that possibly. We'll have to see. That is all if I can even make a stock one work...
 
Why bother? The road is already traveled and proven with mechanical Moose pumps. Adding "unreliable" electronics isn't doing anything to improve anything, but wasting money. "Reliable electronics" are a different matter on different production designs and not used in the same sentence as the DS4.

Here is further reading of what a bad design the DS4 PMD is:
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/th...4-and-gm-pcm-yea-quite-a-piece-of-work.40940/

Moose pumps: (They make them for the 6.5 too.)
http://www.conestogadiesel.com/products/ford.html
 
I am fully aware of the mechanical versus electronics debate. I work with electronics and do circuit card repair as well so that really isn't my main concern. I just more want something to tinker with on a vehicle that is not my daily driver...

As for the Moose Pump, already have one. I've had one since 2008. If I wanted to go the easy route for more fuel, I would just but and R&D 180cc Db4. All I'm doing is throwing a question out there to see if it is possible.
 
Anyway another question I just thought of is, if I change the direction the pump spins, would the program have to totally be rewritten too? I mean just to make sure the injection events are happening in the correct cylinder? I hope that makes sense. Lol
 
The hurdles I see is the pump spinnign the opposite direction. If you can get a different cam ring in the pump to make it work, then your next obstacle to overcome is the optic sensor ring. You would either have to rewrite the ECM code to read it in the opposite direction, or see if when the pump is being rebuilt if they could flip it around, and if so how much would it affect it's timing reading ability to the optic sensor. If your on facebook, there is a guy on there in one of the 6.5L groups you may want to talk to. He rebuilds pumps at a stanadyne authorized shop, and has all the equipment to do them, and no how to set them up. He's also sat down and done some pump testing to prove what a DS4 can actaully put out(not theoretically as he can command with his tools full fueling), and it is quite a bit less than what many think they are getting. If you are on facebook, I can PM you his name and you can talk to him about it to see how feasable this venture may be. Other than the pump running the opposite direction, you will need a crank sensor with 4 evenly spaced pickups on it to send a crank signal to the ECM. This setup could very well work rather easily IF the pieces to make the pump and optic read backwards are readily available.
 
Thank you for the helpful post. Yes pm his name when you get a chance. As for the sensors, I was thinking of starting with trying to adapt the stock 6.5 sensors. I'm not sure how easy it will be to adapt them until I try it.

And I didn't even think about the optic sensor possibly needing flipped. That is a good point. I'll definitely need to look into that as well. Another thought I had about programming is maybe doing a stand alone computer. That might be easier than using the stock one and trying to reprogram it. I would just have to find one that worked for what I need.
 
I know another member sometime back had looked into possibly using an arduino to control the pump. The stock ECM if provided with a crank sensor signal of 4 pulses per crank revolution, and the correct optic sensor reading should work though. There really isn't that much you would have to provide it other than that. The other though would be having to set the stepper motor up to work in reverse since the pump would be running backwards. You could either repin it, or do it in the programming.
 
I will look into an arduino board as well. I'll see if I can find that thread. I do think I want to keep it simple, so that might be the answer there. As far as the optic sensor goes, if it doesn't work, there is always the possibility of finding a replacement that will. The easiest thing with the stepper might be programming. I do wonder if alternating leads on either the optic sensor or stepper would be a possibility. I'll have to look at the schematics to see that. Just a thought I had...
 
88 Ford said:
I am fully aware of the mechanical versus electronics debate. I work with electronics and do circuit card repair as well so that really isn't my main concern. I just more want something to tinker with on a vehicle that is not my daily driver...

As for the Moose Pump, already have one. I've had one since 2008. If I wanted to go the easy route for more fuel, I would just but and R&D 180cc Db4. All I'm doing is throwing a question out there to see if it is possible.
Click to expand...

A better PMD design or re-enginner the unreliable system to something else for the 6.5 would be a better use of your time and may gather a cult following. This would be an awesome effort if you cut the PMD out of the system for something better. Better mousetrap for sure.

Simply putting a polite reality check out there for you. If it ain't broke don't fix it or "I put GM's unreliable DS4/PMD on my Ford." That thought gives me visions of folks with white coats and padded rooms... :wacky: Do you really work on systems that are more unreliable than the 6.5 PMD design or simply lack vehicle time on the hook to know what you are really getting into? We're not kidding about dumping the DS4 and PMD design for mechanical pumps because loosing engine power at 75MPH on a crowded freeway poses challenges with steering and brake effort. Waiting for the hook sucks. Yes, the design is that unreliable that people go to extremes to get rid of it. I am not even mentioning the random fishbite the DS4 is known for with everything working just to piss you off.
 
It might be a pipe dream to do this. If the Ds4 was engineered properly in the first place, it could have been similar to what a Vp44 pump is on a Cummins. Like Thefermanator mentioned in his posts, there might be a way to simplify it and thus make it more reliable. And with a PMD, there is always the possibility of redesigning the circuit or even better, changing a few components out to correct the inherent issues with them. If I do find a way to make this work, that might be something else to look at as well.
 
Does anyone have any idea what burns out on the PMD? Is it commonly a certain component on it? If anyone has a bad PMD, I could throw it on my test bench at work and see what fails on it...
 
So I was thinking, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is the cam ring that causes the pump to spin the direction it does? So I was thinking, if that is the case, that I could match the Ford firing order by getting custom injector lines and matching them up the where they need to be on the Ds4. The injector lines wouldn't be pretty but could that work or am I thinking wrong?
 
Why dont you just build a shaft coming off timing gear. One end of shaft bolts to the gear (simulates IP) the other end has a gear that drives IP, but IP is fliped 180* (like a "jack shaft"). You'd need a one to one gear and custom hard lines, custom intake, but there shouldn't be all the problems with ECM, sensors...ect .
If I didn't build a good enough mental picture let me know & I'll try again.
 
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Was just thinking, Aren't the Ford IP's capable of pushing more fuel than Chevy's? Maybe the Jack Shaft trick should be done on a 6.5 with a Ford IP??:facepalm:
 
I believe its the cam ring that makes the IP spin how it does. Not the direction the engine spins. I understand jack shafts but I'm not sure if I understood your post correctly.
 
The Ford Db2 pumps do push more from what I understand but the Ds4 has a four plunger pump head and I was thinking with sobe modification might be able to push near what a Db4 pump can push. Plus you have more accurate timing with Ds4.
 
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