Driving into work one day

[jmiller]

Driving into work, the truck just died.

It wasn't sounding right, like an exhaustg leak or something. Turned the corner, it rev'ed slightly and died.

Oil is good, but batteries are low! Voltage is 12.1v. It started fine 20 min earlier. I had just cleaned my grounds and battery connections 2 weeks ago.

It wants to turn over, but not enough juice for more than one cranks. Next question is, did bad batteries take out both alternators???

Just my luck.

Waiting on a tow. Update to follow.

 

[Dan Hunter]

Did you check BOTH batteries. There's a good chances one is well charged the other isn't and the cable that connects them is loose or corroded.

Wouldn't two new batteries be cheaper than a tow?

 

[jmiller]

Check list

Problem: Explain your problem in concise language Driving, Died. Batteries @ 12.1V, would barely crank.


Demographics: tell us about your truck and your ambient conditions:

- Year: 1989
- Truck model and class (ie: c2500) k2500hd
- Automatic or Standard auto
- Mileage: (indicate miles or km) 168000mi
- Replaced parts and mods (IP, PMD, chip/PCM, TM, injectors etc) head, injectors at 150000mi
- Model: ‘S’ or ‘F’ engine, NA or Turbo, EGR? F turbo
- Ambient outside temp: (indicate *C or *F) 18f
- What fuel are you using? (#1 Diesel, #2 Diesel, Bio, VO, WVO, etc) B10/B20
- What fuel additives are you using? None
- Where are you located? Lake Villa, IL

General maintenance: inspect and evaluate the condition of each. When were they last changed?
- Air filter 164000
- Fuel filter 164000
- CDR Valve? 150000
- Coolant – last flushed/replaced at 150000
- Oil – synthetic/regular, changed at Rotela 10/40
- Batteries – state of charge, (matched set) replaced at being charged, 150000
- Battery cables and grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened): 2wks ago
- Glow Plugs - how many miles on them? 10000 What type? G60
- Injectors - last changed at 150000


History: (Describe how the problem first appeared.)
- What were you doing when it happened? Driving
- How was the truck running fine before this problem appeared? It had been running fine. I notice a sound, like an exhaust leak the last few miles before it quit.. It was changing, sounded almost a mechanical knock just before it quit.
- Has this problem ever happened before? Had it died while warming up, three times. It started and ran. Cleaned grounds, tightened nuts on PMD transistors.
- Describe any related factors that might be part of the problem. ______________
- Have you checked for DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)? (Y.N) Need to check And? ________


Diagnostics:

1] Starting:
1a] Does the engine start? No
1b] Does the engine crank over? Yes
1c] Are your batteries fully charged? In process
1d] Have you removed, cleaned, and tightened all battery connections? Within last 2 wks
1e] Does your Wait to Start light come on for a time? How long? Yes, about normal time, 20 seconds or so.
1f] Does your glow plug light come on? _________ For how long? _________
1g] Do you see smoke from the exhaust while cranking? What color? Initially no. started to see white smoke during a check to verify camshaft was turning
1h] Does the Service Engine Light Glow during Start/bulb check? Yes

2] Fuel Issues (if not running):
2a] Can you hear your lift pump working? Yes
2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ? Yes
2c] Loosen the inlet line from the IP – is fuel coming out (Lift Pump on)? Did not do, had fuel at fuel manager
2d] Loosen an injector line and crank the engine - does fuel come out? Not initially, but do have fuel at the injectory
2e] Do you hear a vacuum (hiss) when you remove the fuel cap? Have not checked, normally small hiss

3] PMD / IP Issues
3a] Location of PMD (on pump, on intake, remote mounted) Currently on manifold
3b] Condition of Extension harness (if used) Vendor or Homemade? N/A
3c] Condition of grounds / ground wires to IP / PMD. Check Harness. Cleaned, 2 wks
3d] PMD Make: Standadiyne
3e] PMD Age: Not known

4] Stalling Issues
4a] Do you experience stalling only when hot? Only stall was at cold start
4b] Does it stall under particular circumstances? (ie hit bump, or on accel) cold start
4c] Does pouring cool water over the IP seem to help with restarting? Did not do.
4d] Is stalling momentary (engine recovers)? _________
4e] Does SES light come on when engine hiccups? No
4f] Does cruise control quit working when engine hiccups? N/A
4g] Does re-starting seem to reset engine, restoring cruise and power? Did it three times then 2wks ago, was fine until today.
4h] Changes to dash lights or instruments during stalling events? Did not notice

5] Running Issues
5a] On cold start, does upper rad hose get hard before engine warms up? Had not been an issue
5b] Any bubbles or oil film in coolant overflow tank? no
5c] Any white slime on oil surfaces (dipstick, CDR, oil Fill cap)? No
5d] Excessive white smoke from exhaust on cold start? Some
5e] Excessive black smoke from exhaust under hard acceleration? Yes, but have plow and ballast on the truck. Normally no.

6] Performance Issues
6a] Do you have gauges (boost, EGT) ? No
6b] Maximum boost under load? No_
6c] Have you added a performance PCM (reflash) or Chip? No
6d] Have you changed exhaust / downpipe / crossover? No, Stock
6e] Wastegate – mechanical or vacuum (OEM)? OEM

7] Temperature-related Issues:
7a] Single or dual thermostats? Dual
7b] Have you replaced them lately? Manufacturer of replacements? When head was changed. Napa
7c] Have you pulled and cleaned Radiator and coolers lately? Washed several times in truck

7d] Have you replaced the fan clutch? Manufacturer of replacement? No
7e] (winter) Have you tested your antifreeze? Good to what temp? No, had not added coolant since flush.
7f] (winter) Are you using a winter grille cover? No

List and describe any other factors which are not addressed in this checklist. We can’t see, hear, smell, or touch your truck, so the more descriptive information you can give, the more likely it is that somebody can assist you.

I did notice the smell of Oil right after it died. I Did not see any leaks or trails of oil. Batteries were at 12.1 volts when it quit. It would barely crank over. Did not notice or see any reason for the batteries to be low. I have not found any blown fuses.

Once towed home, started charging the batteries and checking things. I had Fuel at the fuel manager. Cracked a line at the injector, did not see fuel initially. Remove Oil fill tube to check the cam shaft for rotation. While performing the check, it hit. Checked injector line, had fuel. Started to get white smoke.

While cranking, there is a distinct mechanical thud. I think it is once a rotation. Engine wanted to start. Like it was on one or two cylinders.

Need to try new fuel filter. The mechanical noise has me concerned.

 

[WarWagon]

Get the electrical system back up and working. 12.1V is more or less dead for a battery.

Sounds like you turned off the key but with a dead battery...

Not enough speed, from dead batteries, when cranking can kick the engine back on the starter or cause non-normal noise.

May have to prime it by running the lift pump depending on how the electrical shut down...

 

[jmiller]

I have gotten the batteries back up to snuff. It has starter speed now. Its tring to start. Its hitting some, like on a cylinder or two. But it won't hit on all the cylinders.

I did change the fuel filter.

 

[ak diesel driver]

try a fuel pressure gauge might be a weak lift pump

 

[ak diesel driver]

or quits working when you try and crank it

 

[Dan Hunter]

I have gotten the batteries back up to snuff. It has starter speed now. Its tring to start. Its hitting some, like on a cylinder or two. But it won't hit on all the cylinders.

I did change the fuel filter.

What's the root of the problem? How did your batteries end up down? What's up to snuff? If your batteries haven't been load tested, not just that they have voltage but can deliver the appropriate amps as well, you haven't eliminated a problem and might be chasing ghosts.

If you haven't truly eliminated a known problem, you can't move on in troubleshooting.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

I'll agree with ensuring that both of your batteries have been properly checked. This means getting BOTH batteries INDIVIDUALLY load tested.

However, if this doesn't solve the issue. As much as I hate to say it sounds to me like a classic total PMD failure. Especially considering that your PMD is on the manifold, its an original standyne, and the age is unknown.

 

[Dan Hunter]

I'll agree with ensuring that both of your batteries have been properly checked. This means getting BOTH batteries INDIVIDUALLY load tested.

However, if this doesn't solve the issue. As much as I hate to say it sounds to me like a classic total PMD failure. Especially considering that your PMD is on the manifold, its an original standyne, and the age is unknown.

Agreed. A PMD "remoted" on the manifold is a longterm non-solution.

 

[jmiller]

I have to get the kid's old car fixed and out of the garage. (need a ride while the truck is down) With the weather in the teens today and Zero tonight, it was a challenge to troubleshoot what I did.

It is sounding like there may be multiple issues.


I think that there is a mechanical issue. While cranking, it sounds like a piston is hitting. Its like a ckunkle sound on each revolution. Spun rod?

Right now, I think that a compression test is top priority. The noise while cranking has me really worried. When the truck quit, my first thought was broken rod or seized. It had been making a abnormal sound for the last couple miles before it died.

Once any mechanical issue is determined, then alternator and battery tests are next on the list.

The batteries with a low charge have me stumped. The Batteries were fine when I started it. With dual alternators, how could the batteries get so low. The alternators held there own last week when I plowed (maintained good voltage while operating the plow). The truck started the last night at work, just fine. Temps were in the teens most of the day.


When I got it to crank and was having issue with getting fuel. The PMD was high on the list. The stall a couple weeks ago had me on alert that the PMD might be on the way out. But I have fuel at the injector now, white smoke when it is cranking. So PMD, is lower on the priority list. It might be that with the low batteries on the first couple cranks, the ECM didn't fire the solenoid?

Remote PMD mount has been on the list. I need the one connector to build a harness. Guess I should get that ordered in the morning. The PMD is getting moved before it hits the road again.

I also need to get a scanner and check for any codes have been set.

Thanks for everyones input so far. :thumbsup:

 

[NVW]

I have to get the kid's old car fixed and out of the garage. (need a ride while the truck is down) With the weather in the teens today and Zero tonight, it was a challenge to troubleshoot what I did.

It is sounding like there may be multiple issues.


I think that there is a mechanical issue. While cranking, it sounds like a piston is hitting. Its like a ckunkle sound on each revolution. Spun rod?

Right now, I think that a compression test is top priority. The noise while cranking has me really worried. When the truck quit, my first thought was broken rod or seized. It had been making a abnormal sound for the last couple miles before it died.

Once any mechanical issue is determined, then alternator and battery tests are next on the list.

The batteries with a low charge have me stumped. The Batteries were fine when I started it. With dual alternators, how could the batteries get so low. The alternators held there own last week when I plowed (maintained good voltage while operating the plow). The truck started the last night at work, just fine. Temps were in the teens most of the day.


When I got it to crank and was having issue with getting fuel. The PMD was high on the list. The stall a couple weeks ago had me on alert that the PMD might be on the way out. But I have fuel at the injector now, white smoke when it is cranking. So PMD, is lower on the priority list. It might be that with the low batteries on the first couple cranks, the ECM didn't fire the solenoid?

Remote PMD mount has been on the list. I need the one connector to build a harness. Guess I should get that ordered in the morning. The PMD is getting moved before it hits the road again.

I also need to get a scanner and check for any codes have been set.

Thanks for everyones input so far. :thumbsup:

Just cut the original harness and splice in some wire, solder and shrink wrap the joints.

 

[buddy]

maybe your timing got off somehow. Is the IP still secure, no loose nuts. Timing chain jump a few teeth.

I would try unplugging the OS first.

And a new PMD is a good try.

Air Leaks, so check fuel pressure, and look for any cruddy looking fuel lines back to the tank.

What type of 10W30 oil are you using?

 

[jmiller]

Got the kid's old car fixed, so I can get around. Truck is now in the garage and work has started on figuring out what happened.

Got the Glows out, all but two were wet. Need to verify the glow wiring!!!

Batteries held up good during compression test. Need to get them load tested, yet.


Performed a compression test. (in psi)
1 - 325 :: 2 - 280
3 - 350 :: 4 - 300
5 - 375 :: 6 - 325
7 - 345 :: 8 - 330

Based on the noise I heard, when it quit, and the compression test, its time to pull the pan and check the rods. I would expect to find #2 spun a rod.

I don't remember, but compression the last time (141000 mi) was in the 340 to 380 range.

 

[buddy]

well, yes you have a serious problem there. They need to be close to 400 and within about a range of 25 psi.

 

[jmiller]

Houston, I think there is a problem

Found this when I drained the oil :mad2:

I guess its time to pull the engine.

More carnage to follow, I guess.

 

[NVW]

Sorry to see and hear that, good luck

 

[jmiller]

Carnage

Well, its out.

I found only a gallon of oil in the sump.

While preping for removal, I had noticed a leak on the front seal. This bothered me, because I had just put a new harmonic balancer on this spring. The rear seal main seal had always leaked.

So after pulling out the motor, I started to tear it down for the machine shop.

I found the crank bolt loose the harmonic balancer. The key had sheared and the balance slid right off by hand. (evidently, I didn't torque it properly or forgot the locktite.)

That exposed this:

Which also took out the CPS.

Pulled the pan and found the 1&2 rod bearings out.

 

[buddy]

Wow, impressive crack there

 

[packratt]

To bust the bottom of the timing cover out, was there any play in the crank and main bearings?