DIY BD1 Programming - Burn your own chips!

[great white]

At the risk of taking the thread further off topic, you guys beating on Lyndon are missing the point.

Wester's doesn't sell to the end user, they sell to shops. That's where the bread and butter is.

You can buy their stuff, but you're going to pay shop prices.

Saying they charge too much for tuning to the average schmo is kind of an apples and oranges comparison. They're marketed towards shops, not end users. Kind of like retail and wholesale supplier kind of thing....

Wester's is where I bought my stuff for OBDII, but I only paid 100 bucks. That was for the VDF (XDF in this threads context) only. It's an option he offers and I'm grateful for that. I had to already have Tunercat II to use it. I ended up just north of 800 bucks "all in".

The Duramax guys are paying $800-ish for EFILive, and then they have to buy licenses for the vehicles (I could be off on the licensing thing, I don't use efilive). Just about what I paid for my tuning option for my truck. If I want to do more, I need another VDF and another 100 bucks. Again, very similar to efilive, except I can 'tune" as many trucks as I want that match my vdf. There's no limit on it. I believe efilive has a limit (But I could be wrong there.)

So 1400 bucks for unlimited number of vehicles and all the other vehicles it does isn't too far a stretch.

Now, do I think that "tuning" should be freeware?

Yup, pretty much.

Do I think it should be done based on someone's work who wants to be paid for it?

Nope.

That's why I offer all the help I can with this stuff for various people. I'll give out freeware diss-assemblers, assemblers and any definition files I've made myself. I've even given out my modified cals. But I don't give out anything I've had to buy from a developer. It has to be given au gratis and with permission to give it out before I redistribute it.

That's why some guys wanting my OBDII stuff have gone away disappointed. I don't own any of the rights; I bought it, so I can't give it out.

Oh, for those who might be thinking "MOLE"; nope.

Not me.

If Lyndon was "tipped off", it sure wasn't me.

Besides, I thought all this stuff was built (or found open source) by the two thread posters that have taken the lead here.

Let's get back to building open source stuff and leave the copyright and mud slinging issues behind shall we?

After all, reverse engineering GM's code puts us all kind in the "gray" area of legality......last time I checked, they haven't open sourced anything. They just seem to choose to turn a blind eye.....

 

[buddy]

Well, as dripspeed and rainstate have demonstrated, the chips and the adapters can be had for under $50. A burner can be had for under $100. The 27fs512 chip is an EEPROM, so it doesn't need an eraser. The software is free (unless you "contribute" $39) and none of us need the gas files. And it seems like the members here are able to offer quite a bit of support.

Remind me why anyone would spend $1400 for the same thing they can get for under $200? That's a hell of a mark up ...

All hubris aside here ... but I don't think anyone would have bought the product from you anyways. On top of that, I think I saw earlier that a couple of members here are working on creating new definition files.

I think you're making a mountain out of molehill. You're pitching a fit because a small subset of users found a way to do what you're doing and not charge a 700% mark up. *insert comment about supply and demand/capitalism here*

You seem to have discounted the software as "free", this is true of tunerpro, but while using pirated software definition files is free to you, its also illegal and someone else put in a lot of time and effort to create it. Its only cheaper for you, because someone else has done all the work. And you can spend hundreds of hours pouring over it and testing it and testing your own tuning, then I wouldnt expect your time to be considered free, although for some it may be enjoyable. All of the files I have seen have been generated with the Westers files as the basis. And there are many corrections to be made. Don't let Wester fool you. The disassemly available for guys to make thier own definitions was 98% of the work, and that last 2% will probably still take a month of someones leisure time. They got smart with the OBD2 stuff and started selling individual definitions for $100, but that was with a software platform you had to purchase, so it still cost you about $1000 to get into it with all the software and hardware.

I see no reason to hassle someone for trying to protect their copyrighted material. You've been enabled by their work, their time and didnt pay a cent for it. You cannot get the same thing for $200 unless someone else spends their own year of free time or months of normal business hours making the defintions for you. Moates has been providing burners, chips, and adapters for many years, that anyone could have used. Or any number of other setups, but the definitions are the key, and what take so much effort, and therefore expected payment for when Westers licenses his.

 

[OrionThade]

You seem to have discounted the software as "free", this is true of tunerpro, but while using pirated software definition files is free to you, its also illegal and someone else put in a lot of time and effort to create it. Its only cheaper for you, because someone else has done all the work. And you can spend hundreds of hours pouring over it and testing it and testing your own tuning, then I wouldnt expect your time to be considered free, although for some it may be enjoyable. All of the files I have seen have been generated with the Westers files as the basis. And there are many corrections to be made. Don't let Wester fool you. The disassemly available for guys to make thier own definitions was 98% of the work, and that last 2% will probably still take a month of someones leisure time. They got smart with the OBD2 stuff and started selling individual definitions for $100, but that was with a software platform you had to purchase, so it still cost you about $1000 to get into it with all the software and hardware.

I see no reason to hassle someone for trying to protect their copyrighted material. You've been enabled by their work, their time and didnt pay a cent for it. You cannot get the same thing for $200 unless someone else spends their own year of free time or months of normal business hours making the defintions for you. Moates has been providing burners, chips, and adapters for many years, that anyone could have used. Or any number of other setups, but the definitions are the key, and what take so much effort, and therefore expected payment for when Westers licenses his.

You're putting words in my mouth. I haven't discounted any of that.

If Wester's wants to stay competitive, sell the individual definition file for a specific broadcast code at a reasonable price. Why would anyone pay $1400 to get 1 definition file?

What he did was come here and complain about the problem. What he didn't do was come here and say "Hey, rather than scream copyright infringement, why don't we work out a deal where I license the definition file for x number of dollars." That would be a win-win for everybody, I think.

But he didn't do that, did he?

 

[btfarm]

You seem to have discounted the software as "free", this is true of tunerpro, but while using pirated software definition files is free to you, its also illegal and someone else put in a lot of time and effort to create it. Its only cheaper for you, because someone else has done all the work. And you can spend hundreds of hours pouring over it and testing it and testing your own tuning, then I wouldnt expect your time to be considered free, although for some it may be enjoyable. All of the files I have seen have been generated with the Westers files as the basis. And there are many corrections to be made. Don't let Wester fool you. The disassemly available for guys to make thier own definitions was 98% of the work, and that last 2% will probably still take a month of someones leisure time. They got smart with the OBD2 stuff and started selling individual definitions for $100, but that was with a software platform you had to purchase, so it still cost you about $1000 to get into it with all the software and hardware.

I see no reason to hassle someone for trying to protect their copyrighted material. You've been enabled by their work, their time and didnt pay a cent for it. You cannot get the same thing for $200 unless someone else spends their own year of free time or months of normal business hours making the defintions for you. Moates has been providing burners, chips, and adapters for many years, that anyone could have used. Or any number of other setups, but the definitions are the key, and what take so much effort, and therefore expected payment for when Westers licenses his.

The entire world knows what you sell buddy. This thread is about somthing NEW and reasonably priced. Precisely BECAUSE of that. But you already knew that...

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

After all, reverse engineering GM's code puts us all kind in the "gray" area of legality......last time I checked, they haven't open sourced anything. They just seem to choose to turn a blind eye.....

This has been discussed, but once you buy a vehicle from GM it now belongs to you along with all of the software in it. So long as you can easily read out what is in it, it is yours to do with as you please. This is why starting in 2011 for the LML, GM no longer puts the required software into the ECM to read the tune file out, and has essentially blocked all legal forms of tuning them(I know some are tuning them, but they are skating on thin ice in doing so).

EFILIVE now costs $499 for a V2, and $400 for the GM tuning suite, or $400 for the cummins tuning suite. If you only want to do GM then that is $899 and comes with 2 VIN licenses to tune 2 ECM/TCM combos as many times as you want. If you add on the CUMMINS to it it would cost you $1299, but that would come with 4 VIN licenses. Additional VIN licenses are $125 each. And I believe LS1 A ECM's are still unlimited with EFILIVE V2 purchasers(97-98 LS engine ECM's).

And as for the software in question. It is openly available through several sites on the internet. It MAY be Lyndon's software, I have no idea. All I know is it is out there on several sites and has been for quite some time. Seems odd to me that it is all of the sudden a HUGE issue. And I agree that Lyndon could resell his definition files for OBD1 seperately and make a good profit as I'm sure most would gladly pay $50 for the definition file just to help out and keep it legal, but $1400 is ridiculous. It all boils down to wether he wants to make money, or just to try and block it. As for trying to prove it is copyrighted, that is a TOUGH battle to do in court. Then you would have to prove who leaked the files and that all those who published it knew it was copyrighted(instead of freeware like many definition files for tunerpro are).

 

[buddy]

The entire world knows what you sell buddy. This thread is about somthing NEW and reasonably priced. Precisely BECAUSE of that. But you already knew that...

What is your point, when you use pirated software its not really something new. I have offered in the past to help people make their own definition files. There is nothing really original here, just more access. I have no issue with it, could care less if you keep using illegally distributed software on your forum. I just thought you should give credit where credit is due to Westers that made it possible, and at least try to reconcile the error politely and not give him a hard time. Or give credit to the guy that put in the time to disassemble the software and provide that free to enable anyone to make their own. There was no sudden revalation that you could do this, and its easy, there was just pirating. It was probably never an issue because no one did anything with it before, didnt distribute as the basis of a business proposition. I can guarantee I didn't alert Wester to anything, but I did alert you all to the likelihood of the files origin. Westers also has to think about his customers, who license the products, as it was a barrier to entry into the capability intentionally. If you make original files then there is no issue.

The ideas in this thread is using Moates business structure of providing access to DIY tuning and the hardware at reasonable prices, and forums to discuss and distribute files. Its nice that there is a 6.5 specific site for that, although it has been available to everyone for years, these exact products, the adapters, chips, ect....

 

[oldblacksmoker]

One thing for certain. I believe that anyone who develops or innovates is due a reward that the market will bear. I have no problem with anyone charging whatever they desire and withholding their real and intellectual property to their own person or sharing for a price. The reality with technology and the development of such is that everyone who develops anything is using something to begin with that someone else has thought of. For instance, google, apple, samsung, microsoft, etc. The giants manage to steal innovation from each other by owning enough property that they have leverage against each other so they can agree not to sue each other, or to settle. Google is the biggest thief out there,I but they are being robbed themselves and are too powerful to fight. However, we all buy their products and use their software, because collectively, they've developed some pretty powerful stuff.
Regarding Buddy, the entire world also knows that his development of a multi-tune product was earth-shaking. The obd2 guys are still drooling. I hope you have recovered enough to make it worth your while. If I were you, I wouldn't want any of us to take your idea and use it on the cheap.
I understand that Lyndon doesn't want his intellectual property stolen. That's not only reasonable, but also right.
Those things being said (along with some other sarcastic comments I made in fun earlier), what is happening right now is bound to happen now or some other time. More people are going to use existing ideas to come up with new and better ways, and the old tech is going to be cheap. The alternative is for our trucks to hit the scrapyard with original gm programming. A truck that you can buy for a thousand bucks (sorry to insult you guys, but they're out there for that price) cannot justify 3-400 dollar tuning. It is tuned for the fun of it, and if the cost is prohibitive, then only the wealthy can afford to tune. That begs the question, why are the wealthy driving 6.5 diesels. I love mine, but I bet I'd love a duramax too if I had one that was paid for.

Compliments on Lyndon, buddy, and others who have been part in developing a better way. I sincerely wish that it has reaped you the reward you deserve. No one should steal from you or disrespect you.

Kudos to Rainstate, thedrip, and fermanator for doing for fun and for free!

What is your point, when you use pirated software its not really something new. I have offered in the past to help people make their own definition files. There is nothing really original here, just more access. I have no issue with it, could care less if you keep using illegally distributed software on your forum. I just thought you should give credit where credit is due to Westers that made it possible, and at least try to reconcile the error politely and not give him a hard time. Or give credit to the guy that put in the time to disassemble the software and provide that free to enable anyone to make their own. There was no sudden revalation that you could do this, and its easy, there was just pirating. It was probably never an issue because no one did anything with it before, didnt distribute as the basis of a business proposition. I can guarantee I didn't alert Wester to anything, but I did alert you all to the likelihood of the files origin. Westers also has to think about his customers, who license the products, as it was a barrier to entry into the capability intentionally. If you make original files then there is no issue.

The ideas in this thread is using Moates business structure of providing access to DIY tuning and the hardware at reasonable prices, and forums to discuss and distribute files. Its nice that there is a 6.5 specific site for that, although it has been available to everyone for years, these exact products, the adapters, chips, ect....

 

[oldblacksmoker]

Also, note the attitude of thedrip in immediately removing anything that he believes is not legal. He isn't fussing, just complying.

 

[oldblacksmoker]

What was it this guy said?

Why can't we all just get along?

 

[WarWagon]

I'm sorry you feel that way, I pay licenses to those who've developed the majority of the gas templates for each system I sell--so there's no 700% markup like you think. We make about 10%-15% on each system we sell to tuning shops.
Yeah, there's a lot of freebie-cheap stuff out there that make it tough to compete. Ok, I'm done.
Hope you're never in my shoes someday.

First off thank you for not suing the infringing member on here for $150,000. I don't think anyone here has made it clear to them what they just dodged and maybe it can lend some understanding and provide a warning to others. The lawyer fees alone would be rough to cover no doubt. Maybe they have missed the headlines of the RIAA suing the living hell out of people? :mad2: Hopefully they have learned their lesson and will not push it to make you take those additional steps like any Google search of 'copyright infringement software' will turn up:

"Plaintiffs who can show willful infringement may be entitled to damages up to $150,000 per work. Defendants who can show that they were "not aware and had no reason to believe" they were infringing copyright may have the damages reduced to $200 per work."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_damages_for_copyright_infringement
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

Much as I respect the copyright I respectfully suggest it is time to reconsider your business model for today's market.

It is time to renegotiate the licenses and make a specific "packages" for 6.5 diesels, 454 gas engines (Don't care about), 350's (Really don't care about), and 1993 diesel specific Transmission controller chips that are competitive in price. (One vendor makes a complete computer to do what you want anyway.) Or at least make your product cheap enough that a hobbyist wouldn't mind paying for it. The 6.5's being rare to start with and rarer now do to engine failures taking more off the road than the gas engine counterparts. Otherwise the people who have purchased your full price software for these 10+ year old end of production vehicles have already done so. The current production HUMMERS are not relevant to what we drive except as good engine blocks from surplus.

A good price guide is what EFI live or HPTuners charges, however, they cover current models. So last century's software and work should be a little more specific and discounted.

The $1400 price tag in today's market is a harsh lesson in supply and demand. Looks like other people have the time to re-invent the wheel and are doing so. Why? Well we are going places with the 6.5 tunes and configurations the established shops can't get their arrogant heads around with larger turbos etc. The other reason is $1400 bar is a major motivation to do it yourself as some other tuners have shown you.

I have opened my wallet to extensively modify my 6.5 much more than the damn thing is worth. There is money to be made, but isn't going to be $1400 for something that others are doing in a more complete way and way cheaper. I am interested in completed tunes specific to what I have done. A canned tune will not do and even a custom tune is pushing available talent not only for my vehicles, but, others mentioned in this thread.

There are others who would like their work to be GPL so it is only a matter of time before places have a choice like Microsoft vs. Linux. Again I respectfully suggest you explore remaining ways you could make money off your product for the hobby market.

 

[WarWagon]

That begs the question, why are the wealthy driving 6.5 diesels. I love mine, but I bet I'd love a duramax too if I had one that was paid for.

Cost to pay the tags is $20.00 1993 vs. $400+ 2005. Pink slip on the 1993 was easy to get $ wise. Rich people are very cheap sometimes.

Preference of a smooth, repeatable, and predictable cable drive throttle 1993 vs. the 2005 Duramax LLY lurches throttle.

 

[great white]

A bit of investigation seems to indicate this started over on gearheadefi.com and lead to all the places the $EC were referenced. Started about 4 weeks ago from what I can find.

For those bemoaning the price of Westers OBDI stuff; I believe it was 2006 or 2008 they offered it as a cheaper stand alone package. Somewhere around 300 bucks if memory serves. After about a year o so of no sales they pulled it off the market.

May have something to do with the definition files being pirated also....

*late addition*

Aha! here's what I was recalling and it was 2007:

OBD1 Eprom Editing Software is available to modify your 6.5 Turbodiesel the way you want ! This is the first and only editing package available.

Packages include:

EPROM read/write hardware
EPROM adapters so you don't have to desolder or resolder anything
Windows based OBD1 Editing Software
EPROM eraser -- everything you need.
Technical assistance Monday through Friday 8:00 to 6:00 PM MST

Due to the underwhelming response, both OBD1 and OBD2 retuning packages will revert to their original introduced pricing combined with our other products. There will be no further individual tuning packages available effective July 1st - 2007.

 

[oldblacksmoker]

Personally, if I couldn't find anyone to pay 300, I'd try less than that not more. Ten guys paying 200 are better than one guy paying 1400. One way to stop ripoffs is to make it so that it isn't worthwhile. However, as stated before, it is their right to do as they please. Seems as though they've enjoyed a measure of success, just no love from the hobbyists. And that also is another point. When you get a great deal coupled with good service, you tend to be loyal. Loyalty gets a paycheck and has a future.

 

[buddy]

A bit of investigation seems to indicate this started over on gearheadefi.com and lead to all the places the $EC were referenced. Started about 4 weeks ago from what I can find.

Unfortunately it started well before that. I think it was up on a "3500" or whatever site I saw a couple years ago. Its been out there, but someone with the Westers OBDII files told me it looked just like the nomenclature they have with all the same mistakes. So I let it be, and continued collaboration on a disassembly file.


Moates also has a multi-program setup that you could use today for about $80, not including adapter and EPROM, I just dont like it.

 

[oldblacksmoker]

I personally like my 6.5. I actually prefer the bucket seats and the handling on the road to anything I can think to compare it with. My wife can't figure out why I won't turn loose of it. However, I'll be honest and say I would get attached to a d-max too. Or even a nice cummins.

Cost to pay the tags is $20.00 1993 vs. $400+ 2005. Pink slip on the 1993 was easy to get $ wise. Rich people are very cheap sometimes.

Preference of a smooth, repeatable, and predictable cable drive throttle 1993 vs. the 2005 Duramax LLY lurches throttle.

 

[oldblacksmoker]

Rich people are very cheap sometimes.

Hope you are sharing a personal perspective.

 

[great white]

A bit of investigation seems to indicate this started over on gearheadefi.com and lead to all the places the $EC were referenced. Started about 4 weeks ago from what I can find.

For those bemoaning the price of Westers OBDI stuff; I believe it was 2006 or 2008 they offered it as a cheaper stand alone package. Somewhere around 300 bucks if memory serves. After about a year o so of no sales they pulled it off the market.

May have something to do with the definition files being pirated also....

*late addition*

Aha! here's what I was recalling and it was 2007:

So, I'll amend the post:


This particular round of it started 4 weeks ago when someone posted it on Lyndon's personal web forum.

The definition files were stolen/uploaded/pirated many years ago.

They know who they are and so do many others.

Those "many others" also know who's using them currently.....

:ninja:

 

[buddy]

OK, I think you meant 5 months ago, in the thread you linked to a while back. Posts on there from March, because they were posted here almost 3 months ago.

Unless you just meant thats when Wester got involved, because they showed up on his radar.

 

[OrionThade]

So back on topic ...

I just pulled out my ECM to check the broadcast code. It's BNTB. I'm guessing that when I put the new 5521 chip in I would want a BNTK burn ... am I reading that correctly?

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

OK, I think you meant 5 months ago, in the thread you linked to a while back. Posts on there from March, because they were posted here almost 3 months ago.

Unless you just meant thats when Wester got involved, because they showed up on his radar.

Who really cares when it started, all that matters is what is happening NOW. thedrip took the files down to comply, and is being MORE than understanding of this situation all things considered. It would be impossible to have been able to tell if they were his files or not as so many definition files ARE free for use with tunerpro. I found the same files years back, but didn't take much interest in it as I had lost interest in dealing with the 6.5 and was ready to move on to a platform with more potential. So enough of the when it began, and lets deal with what is happening now. If you want to be helpful and offer some direction or your own files, then so be it. Otherwise this back and forth banter over when is doing nothing for the thread.

So lets get back to the topic of OBD1 DIY tuning.