Delta 202 cam no good?

[3500_6.5]

Here is Joe's reply:

That delta cam is a remake of the old Crane camshaft that had running issues. The problem with that cam design is there is only 1 lobe profile for the entire cam. These engines require different lobe designs for passenger and drive side, which is the way the cam is done from GM. When you have 1 lobe for both sides it causes the event timings to be off from what they should be, and you have a cam that makes less power and has drivability issues as a result of that. The Delta or Crane cams are ones that are ground in such a way that we cannot even use them as a core cam.
Our HT4 Performance cam is one that has 4 different lobe designs, 2 for each side - an intake and exhaust lobe. That allows the cam to treat both sides of the engine differently, optimizing performance.
Similar to gas race engines, you'll see them having upwards of 6 different lobe profiles to make everything work to it's very best.
The HT4 Performance cam that we offer is one that makes 20+ HP and 40+ FP at the flywheel, and also lowers the exhaust temperature dramatically. We've also had many repots of 1-2, and sometimes more, MPG gain.
Let me know if this helps!

Hmmmmm

Some food for thought on the hp/tq claims with their cam: if you check out his website it gives those hp claims as well, but it says it requires a tune to get it. But on the other hand, you can buy just a tune and get more hp and not have to change the cam. So why buy a cam and the tune to go with it if you can just buy the tune for half the price and get more power? I love the fact that there are people out there still putting out products for these engines, but just be careful on the products you buy.

There is one vendor who does give the specs of the cam he sells though....good ole Walt from SS Diesel. Everyone's favorite vendor lol.

And as far as ds4s and fuel output, I went through that whole mess a little over a year ago. I was told they could put out 120 mm3. I mentioned that to a vendor, and instead of saying that it wasn't possible, he told me he has a special "race" tune that wasn't for the average 6.5. It had to be built to the hilt and required a plethora of gauges. I told him what I had planned and he told me he would get me the tune.

8 or so weeks later I get the tune and what do you know, scanner is showing 79.x mm3 and feels no where near where 120mm3 of fuel should feel. So I talk directly to the programmer and he says 120mm3 is not possible. So I got robbed of $350 or so by being convinced I was getting something I wasn't. The programmer did say he estimated that I was getting somewhere in the 105mm3 range though. Meh, still not convinced.

A few months later I get my hands on my old marine db2 and decide to rid my truck of the ds4 and swap the db2 on. Has roughly the same power up top, tons more down low. Long story short, I send it off to be beefed up and find out it was only putting out somewhere in the 80ish cc's (same as mm3) in the 3000 rpm range. So basically my race tuned ecm was still putting out the roughly 80mm3 the programming only allows for. If you want more fuel than that, don't believe the hype of any of the vendors, they can't get it. As stated by great white, a db2 is the only way to go to go beyond that 80mm3. Best thing about the db2's is that all the builders will give the output. No guessing, assuming or theorizing. It's tested on a bench so you get real numbers. Just wish I came across that information a year and a half ago. Would have saved me some money and lots of time.


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[THEFERMANATOR]

It has been tested by a person in the know with a test stand and a stand alone test cntroller that can fully actuate teh DS4 pump that at teh injector opening your only going to get in the 90-94Mm3 of fuel range(this is highly dependant on RPM's as the DS4 drops fuel output once it goes beyond arund 2250 or so). The HEX code can be altered to command 120MM3 of fuel from the pump, and in theory the pump can displace 120Mm3 of fuel, but this is at 0PSI. Once you approach pop pressure of 2200-2400 or so at the injector, your up around 6-10K at the pump, and at those pressures things change. And a scanner will not show above the 79.7MM3 of fuel hard limit set forth in the ECM, but it CAN fuel beyond that point(just not all that much beyond it). With a DS4 your never going to see all that much fuel, nothing like a DB2 can be built to do. There is also one person who has put larger plungers in a DS4 pump(even though some self proclaimed pump experts say it isn't possible), but last I talked to him this pump was stil lsitting on the shelf as the code changes to make it work i nthe ECM were still in question(not to mention having it calibrated since it would be uncharted territory).

 

[uniquediesel]

Great White,

Thank you for the explanation.

I paid my dues for the software/calibrations, there is no need in suspecting that this would be shared. I believe in paying for what's hard earned.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Can someone tell me what tranny is in my 97 Chevy 1500 6.5 TD

Stix88

Perhaps, "you should look up the RPO code for your transmission in glovebox!"

 

[turbovanman]

It would be interesting to use and equal length log type intake on the center mount setup.

They do, both head manifolds look equal and the center piece nicely joins them.

Actually, there is a vacuum source. It's between the turbo and the air cleaner. It's used to "scavenge" the crankcase and is limited via the CDR valve.....

LOL, you got me, but a little vacuum, not much.

Can someone tell me what tranny is in my 97 Chevy 1500 6.5 TD

Stix88

Weird request in a cam thread but most likely its got the 4L80E.

 

[n8in8or]

Some food for thought on the hp/tq claims with their cam: if you check out his website it gives those hp claims as well, but it says it requires a tune to get it. But on the other hand, you can buy just a tune and get more hp and not have to change the cam. So why buy a cam and the tune to go with it if you can just buy the tune for half the price and get more power? I love the fact that there are people out there still putting out products for these engines, but just be careful on the products you buy.

There is one vendor who does give the specs of the cam he sells though....good ole Walt from SS Diesel. Everyone's favorite vendor lol.

And as far as ds4s and fuel output, I went through that whole mess a little over a year ago. I was told they could put out 120 mm3. I mentioned that to a vendor, and instead of saying that it wasn't possible, he told me he has a special "race" tune that wasn't for the average 6.5. It had to be built to the hilt and required a plethora of gauges. I told him what I had planned and he told me he would get me the tune.

8 or so weeks later I get the tune and what do you know, scanner is showing 79.x mm3 and feels no where near where 120mm3 of fuel should feel. So I talk directly to the programmer and he says 120mm3 is not possible. So I got robbed of $350 or so by being convinced I was getting something I wasn't. The programmer did say he estimated that I was getting somewhere in the 105mm3 range though. Meh, still not convinced.

A few months later I get my hands on my old marine db2 and decide to rid my truck of the ds4 and swap the db2 on. Has roughly the same power up top, tons more down low. Long story short, I send it off to be beefed up and find out it was only putting out somewhere in the 80ish cc's (same as mm3) in the 3000 rpm range. So basically my race tuned ecm was still putting out the roughly 80mm3 the programming only allows for. If you want more fuel than that, don't believe the hype of any of the vendors, they can't get it. As stated by great white, a db2 is the only way to go to go beyond that 80mm3. Best thing about the db2's is that all the builders will give the output. No guessing, assuming or theorizing. It's tested on a bench so you get real numbers. Just wish I came across that information a year and a half ago. Would have saved me some money and lots of time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I remember reading your thread about going mechanical. That's interesting that you got more power down low with the DB2, I thought one of the advantages of stay with the DS4 was that the timing and fueling curves could be manipulated more by RPM so it would have an advantage down low. Or maybe I'm just thinking of part throttle. Either way, that is interesting info to hear and definitely some food for thought for the future.

 

[JayTheCPA]

Some food for thought on the hp/tq claims with their cam: if you check out his website it gives those hp claims as well, but it says it requires a tune to get it. But on the other hand, you can buy just a tune and get more hp and not have to change the cam. So why buy a cam and the tune to go with it if you can just buy the tune for half the price and get more power?

This is the chicken and egg question I keep coming to . . .

After reading Stanadyne's 'to 30 BHP per cylinder' rating for the DS4 (http://www.stanadyne.com/view.php?id=110) a dummy like me has a tough time with claims that getting significant HP increases are possible without a complete replacement of the IP. Simple math of the DS4 rating is a potential of 240 BHP.

Can understand how a cam can play around with the sweet-spot of where the motor delivers power and at the same time have a hard time connecting the dots on how it is possible to get more power from the motor without re-mapping the DS4's output via tune. Even if we play around with the computing tables, the DS4's physical limitation remains (as FERM points out) and at best we can better optimize how the system burns the fuel.

So, getting better HP by re-tuning from the OE programming? Appears this is a known item and it is possible. Getting better HP by simply replacing the cam? Not sold that this is possible without a tune and even there we have limitations.

 

[great white]

Getting more than stanadyne'a rated 30 per hole has to do with optimizing how the available fuel is used in the combustion cycle ie: nature of the injection and exposure to the available o2.

But optimizing it only goes so far, there needs to be hardware changes as well. Some small tweaks, some not so much. All a pita and all expensive. A new cam may help someone get there, but it won't be a magic bullet. It's only part of the mix.

When we topped out my numbers on the dyno, I was running a custom built intake manifold, parallel twins, stub exhausts, WMI and pretty aggressive timing (still on the GEP cam). 300 hp was well in sight, but the engine was not happy. There was no way I was going to be able to drive it home afterwards with any kind of confidence but it could have thrown a 300 up on the board. I was worried it was banging around so bad it was going to hole a piston. I was worried enough to send the boroscope into every hole after every run to have a look at the mechanical condition. So it all came off and went on the shelf. Was a fun project, but that's all it was.

Now I'm running a very "streetable" 250-ish hp. Very quiet engine rattling (for an IDI), decent mpg with the 4.10's (average around 18 mpg), a nice progressive throttle and my 9000lb travel trailer comes along quite smartly.

It's running the stock vacuum wastegate system, the side mount turbo, the oem intake and a first gen dodge CAC. PCM calibration is my own.

My suggestion? Stop chasing a number on a dyno. Once it runs well and does what you need leave it be. Keep up on the maintenance and keep it reliable.

After all that money and effort, I can hold my own with a stock LB7. If he's not paying attention, I can surprise him. But if he's got anything done to it, he's pulling away. Loaded down or not.

If hp is the goal, save your pennies and buy a better starting point.

 

[turbovanman]

When we topped out my numbers on the dyno, I was running a custom built intake manifold, parallel twins, stub exhausts, WMI and pretty aggressive timing (still on the GEP cam).
Now I'm running a very "streetable" 250-ish hp. Very quiet engine rattling (for an IDI), decent mpg with the 4.10's (average around 18 mpg), a nice progressive throttle and my 9000lb travel trailer comes along quite smartly.

I thought the GEP cam was a stock cam from other reports who have measured it?

Pics of the intake? Pretty please. What turbo's where you running and what are you running now?

Why is it quiet? I notice running oils, it almost makes mine sound like a gas engine!

 

[great white]

I thought the GEP cam was a stock cam from other reports who have measured it?

I said the GEP cam that came with my optimizer. Whatever they put in there is what I'm running. Haven't taken it out to check. Not important to me as it works fine for my uses.

Pics of the intake? Pretty please.

Don't have any. We tigged it up Saturday morning, ran it, removed Sunday afternoon and I drove the 3 hours to home on Monday morning. As far as I know it's either still sitting on the shop floor somewhere or went into the scrap AL bin. Knowing the boys, it's beer cans by now. Looked similar to a banks big hoss since we used that as a pattern. It was pretty rough since it was put together quickly. Some gains were noted. I pick up my new home lathe and a millermatic 211 with spool gun in a week so I may try another one as a machining exercise as much as anything else. Doing it in my home shop means I can take my time and make it pretty.

What turbo's where you running and what are you running now?

Modified GM8's on both counts

Why is it quiet?

tuning. It's the way I have the calibration written as much as anything else

I notice running oils, it almost makes mine sound like a gas engine!

I run straight diesel except for PS white in winter, silver in summer. Would run stanadyne additive if I could find it reliably.

I think we're a bit far off the thread topic now. Let's leave the rest for cam discussions as it started out.

 

[turbovanman]

Thanks,

 

[Burning oil]

Im tring to get the specs on the P400 cam and Optimizer.

Obviously I can understand protecting your hard earned R&D. If spec's are given out on a unique item like a camshaft then the first thing that happens is "you" go to another cam company and have them grind one out for you. BUT! at the same time a camshaft specs must be know before hand if you are doing custom work to to the engine. Just like you would need to know for a SBC or BBC or..... Different pistons, rockers, timing gear....
You don't want to just blindly buy a cam off the shelf in every situation.
If you know a certain part/camshaft works because there are many people running the same combo as you want with good results then maybe you just buy it? but its a necesary evil (catch 22) when selling camshafts that customers know what cam profile they are buying IMO.

 

[n8in8or]

The cam arrived today. No cam card as expected but luckiky it has already been documented by other individuals. You can see the difference in the base circles of the two lobes next to each other. I haven't made it out to my barn yet to throw a caliper on them.