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Boat dock Electrical safety ? GFCP with GFCI

S

schiker

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To be as safe as possible in a future electrical installation onto a dock for a boat lift. Would it be good to feed electrical power to the shore power pole (150ft away from house panel) with a GFCP breaker that trips at 30mA then at the power pole use a GFCI breaker (5mA)?

My thought is when there is a ground fault there would be back up or 2nd layer circuit breaker but hopefully not have nuisance trips. 30mA is not always life saving but would trip if there was an actual more potentially lethal amount of current leakage or intrusion from neighbors dock.
 
I do love that you are looking for safest option here.

Got my electrical journeymans card back in early 90’s. I walk tons of people through DIY electrical. Won’t give but 1 recommendation here.

Hire an experienced electrical contractor used to working on the water.

From work I just went through code update class given by the folks that literally write the code book. They announced some changes in this category because they have proven that almost all drownings near boats and docks in the last decade are results from electrical shock.

I have seen it happen here at Lake mead from house boats and at a marina dock where 1 boat was wired wrong out of over 200 and it killed a person 800 yards away. I won’t touch that system for any price. Hate boats anyways.

Not trying to say I know the right answer and won’t help, if I was 100% sure, I would definitely tell you.

Problem is you are messing with the most dangerous part of it. More grounds or remote grounds makes everything go crazy. A false ground can make gfci test ok but not work when needed. Don’t under estimate or try to save money here. Your playing with lives on this one.

Call a pro. Ask how often they work on marina electrical systems before you give them the address.

While I am playing Sally safety here, many people get an electrical shock, and go back to what they are doing only to die later that day or sometimes e few days later. If you ever get a shock, go get checked out at Dr. The shock messes up the heart rhythm and if not defibrillated, death is possible. Doesn’t mean will always happen obviously, but take it serious.
 
I agree its a sensitive area. I have already been to electricshockdrowning.org and that is where I got the idea. One video link says marina's are supposed to GFCP at 100mA the main feeder branches of commercial docks.

I won't be wiring it. I will hire a recommended electrician. I don't want the liability. I have added circuits for my compressor in the garage and wouldn't mind doing shop wiring but just for safety won't do this. BUT I will be checking over their shoulder whether they like it or not. Because you are right this is life or death wiring for my family and the family's on docks near me.

The code doesn't require it. I haven't talked to any electricians but I have asked a few people with knowledge, docks, and know about the dangers on the lake docks (one guy's brother n law has a dock business), None so far have anything much to say about GFCP breakers only GFCI. From reading you can't really wire GFCI in series without expecting nuisance trips. I don't want an over sensitive system but would like a second layer of defense.

By the way the wife has already bought a floating in water shock alarm.
 

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Couldnt hurt to put 30 ahead of it. But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a gfci doesnt have anything to do with ground, in a test or any other way. It really should be called a ground fault assumption device.
There was 1 here, found a simple bond in the service that fed it missing.
 
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For giggles I looked,,, seems the major change was that the 17 code included single family and reduced the threshold all along the way to 30ma. Doesnt surprise me marina owners, dock owners dont know. Many of the other trades do not know the details of their own profession,,, as well drillers about grounding a service to a well, 3/4 of them say,,, I really dont know or understand.
 
I was taking a 2020 nec book exam today for continuing education credits - required for electrical licensing.

Everything about gfci has dramatically changed where they are required, including garages.
Section 555 about the docks & marina stuff had big changes too. 1000v limit is dropped to max of 250v. Full testing bi-directional hookups required now.

The device of the gfci is monitoring between the phases and ground. Hut if the ground
 
(Phone locked up have to continue here)
But if the grounding system isn’t done right, the gfci won’t operate properly. The grounding and bonding is the most commonly messed up part of any electrical system, and when it gets around docks and marinas- that issue gets amplified.

Gfcp at 100ma is different, has a different job. Not what you trust your life to.

One thing I will add that has merit to all:

Anyone that gets an electric shock from ac power (house, garage, etc are all ac. Truck battery is dc) IT DOES NOT MATTER how bad it did or didn’t hurt. Doesn’t matter if 480v, 240v, 120v, or even 12v - if it is AC - then go to a Dr and get an EKG done.

There is more and more cases that started popping up about 15 years ago- guy gets a shock in early January- has heart attack come spring time. The ac power shocks you and your heart looses its timing as it were. Ya know the paddle shock thing where they yell “CLEAR” and it resets you heartbeat timing- thats the deal but in reverse.

Go in, complain about heart pain it you have to, but get that dang EKG. I have now met 2 people that found out their heart was in “afib” and had to be reset. Don’t play around with this.

One heart doc said he knew a guy that got shocked and for the next couple years the guy was just tired feeling whenever he tried to work. Finally was in for something else when they found it. 10 minutes later they zapped him and he had tons of energy and other issues went away. One month follow up was like a new man.
 
Will L. said:
(Phone locked up have to continue here)
But if the grounding system isn’t done right, the gfci won’t operate properly. The grounding and bonding is the most commonly messed up part of any electrical system, and when it gets around docks and marinas- that issue gets amplified.

Gfcp at 100ma is different, has a different job. Not what you trust your life to.

One thing I will add that has merit to all:

Anyone that gets an electric shock from ac power (house, garage, etc are all ac. Truck battery is dc) IT DOES NOT MATTER how bad it did or didn’t hurt. Doesn’t matter if 480v, 240v, 120v, or even 12v - if it is AC - then go to a Dr and get an EKG done.

There is more and more cases that started popping up about 15 years ago- guy gets a shock in early January- has heart attack come spring time. The ac power shocks you and your heart looses its timing as it were. Ya know the paddle shock thing where they yell “CLEAR” and it resets you heartbeat timing- thats the deal but in reverse.

Go in, complain about heart pain it you have to, but get that dang EKG. I have now met 2 people that found out their heart was in “afib” and had to be reset. Don’t play around with this.

One heart doc said he knew a guy that got shocked and for the next couple years the guy was just tired feeling whenever he tried to work. Finally was in for something else when they found it. 10 minutes later they zapped him and he had tons of energy and other issues went away. One month follow up was like a new man.
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There's a lot of people in Afib, that don't know it.
A lot of people go in and out, a lot.

I'd hate to venture a guess at the number of times I've been even be shocked. Working steel / welding, shopping with sweat.

Welding in the rain.

We were setting a tower, my brother was climbing around in front of me. Drug his rod across my chest and then stuck it in my cheek.

Didn't have much choice but to hold on.

We didn't wear any safety back then.
 
But if the grounding system isn’t done right, the gfci won’t operate properly.
Click to expand...
It doesnt reference ground. Only current imbalance between legs. Its one of the only listed ways to replace qa 2 wire with a 3 wire recept. A faulty N to G bond on a grounded neutral service or disconnected ground may leave faulted equipment floating at 120V on common single phase service. Absoluteluy agree the effects are amplified so to speak, out on dry land not good but not quite as bad. I agree also the higher MA are not for personnel so to speak but to look for major fault.

Its worth looking at a drAwiung of a common gfci,,, note there is no connection between it and the ground pin and yoke of the device. GFCI is better than being grounded in some cases, trips at few ma vs a high fault current for a breaker.
 
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Are the changes to garages really "drastic" or do they now include some 240 circuits? I wonder how much it has tio do with new import equipment? Some of the hookups seem questionable as are the voltage adapters. I havnt read it, post it up?
 
I work for gubmint as a sparky so all my literature is at work only and can’t copy it, even if it is freebie stuff online- for me to screenshot it at work makes it a felony so…..

But if you search the 2020 nec- it has it all there. Mike Holt is still the leader in training stuff- they have a bunch out there on it.

None of the changes are really ever dramatic I guess- but much of it is just overkill so I get frustrated. They regulate the cost of things through the roof and it is harming economics of millions of people.

Take afci receptacles now required in all bedrooms, hallways, etc of a house. The. The auto retracing safety plug faces. And couple that with when that recep also is in rnve needing gfci. All the sudden a couple plugs 2 feet away from each other now is a $600 alteration. Talking to a buddy thats an EE for a major home builder in Vegas area -the electrical upgrades alone from 15 years ago for ONLY the receptacles has doubled the cost of electrical installation of new homes.

Why should an adult need safety plugs - just because maybe an infant will be there and the parents cant go buy the $5 pack of safety plugs.

Obviously from my posts on this thread, I am very pro-safety. But the 2 people a year that kill themselves from being stupid should not cost every new home buyer an additional $15,000.

There is a big push to have ALL power in residential to be fully afci, gfci and clean power protected. Estimates are $35,000 per resident up to 2500 sq ft In material alone.
The biggest fight is the hvac industry because they are being forced into vfd compressors and running vfd off afci is next to impossible. Running almost any brushed motor on gfci causes issues as it is.

Just overkill.
 
Will L. said:
(Phone locked up have to continue here)
But if the grounding system isn’t done right, the gfci won’t operate properly. The grounding and bonding is the most commonly messed up part of any electrical system, and when it gets around docks and marinas- that issue gets amplified.

Gfcp at 100ma is different, has a different job. Not what you trust your life to.

One thing I will add that has merit to all:

Anyone that gets an electric shock from ac power (house, garage, etc are all ac. Truck battery is dc) IT DOES NOT MATTER how bad it did or didn’t hurt. Doesn’t matter if 480v, 240v, 120v, or even 12v - if it is AC - then go to a Dr and get an EKG done.

There is more and more cases that started popping up about 15 years ago- guy gets a shock in early January- has heart attack come spring time. The ac power shocks you and your heart looses its timing as it were. Ya know the paddle shock thing where they yell “CLEAR” and it resets you heartbeat timing- thats the deal but in reverse.

Go in, complain about heart pain it you have to, but get that dang EKG. I have now met 2 people that found out their heart was in “afib” and had to be reset. Don’t play around with this.

One heart doc said he knew a guy that got shocked and for the next couple years the guy was just tired feeling whenever he tried to work. Finally was in for something else when they found it. 10 minutes later they zapped him and he had tons of energy and other issues went away. One month follow up was like a new man.
Click to expand...
Does this include getting hit with an electric fence? 😂 can’t tell you how many times I’ve had that happen when I was ranching. Some of those suckers will light you up pretty good, particularly the one we had for the bull pasture, I must’ve come off the ground at least a foot a couple times
 
I ran into the neighbors on my motorcycle.

I thought they were waving to be friendly.

They had run the fence across to their drive to let me the cows eat down the barn yard.

Next thin go I knew I was on the ground all tangled up, getting the shit shocked out of me.

They were a good 100 yards from the fencer to turn it off.
 
jrsavoie said:
I ran into the neighbors on my motorcycle.

I thought they were waving to be friendly.

They had run the fence across to their drive to let me the cows eat down the barn yard.

Next thin go I knew I was on the ground all tangled up, getting the shit shocked out of me.

They were a good 100 yards from the fencer to turn it off.
Click to expand...
Oh man, that’s nasty. Like Steve McQueen but electric fence, not razor wire. Ouch.
I know they’re hard to see, I ran into several at the ranch, when you don’t see the gate wire across the approach and go right through 😂 boss wasnt very happy haha
 
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