MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
Curious now, if this will affect some of the vendors that We use for such things as this. Maybe be wise to find an ECM and send it in for a future predicted tune just so`s its setting there ready and waiting to go.
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Big name tuners are no longer selling "off road/race" tuning
- Thread starter BoostN
- Start date
Rockabillyrat
SlIgHtLy StUpId.
Well if the RPM act doesn't pass then all aftermarket parts will require testing to prove they don't alter a vehicle's emissions before they can be sold. Off road only parts will be treated the same way. So basically most aftermarket products will become illegal. The list on the EPAs website of what products would require testing is ridiculous. Here's a screen shot of that list. I've been following all this VERY closely because my job depends on it. 
- Staff
- #63
I believe it was 2012 when H&S started posting there videos and saying they couldn't be touched because they were selling there products to the department of defense to delete diesels being used overseas. Then Edge got slammed and they laughed. We all seen how that ended since they've been gone since 2014.
The icing on the cake that sent the EPA into attack mode was when the L5P got tuned. GM copyrighted the security protocol they used for the L5P as it was above most anything else available. Turns out it is uncrackable, but a workaround was found, and HP who was already on thin ice went forward with it. Once the EPA seen these "uncrackable" controllers getting bypassed, all bets were off.
It was one thing when it was just a few guys in pickups doing it, but once it spread to semi's, tractors, and stationary power, the EPA was bound to come down with an iron fist.
The icing on the cake that sent the EPA into attack mode was when the L5P got tuned. GM copyrighted the security protocol they used for the L5P as it was above most anything else available. Turns out it is uncrackable, but a workaround was found, and HP who was already on thin ice went forward with it. Once the EPA seen these "uncrackable" controllers getting bypassed, all bets were off.
It was one thing when it was just a few guys in pickups doing it, but once it spread to semi's, tractors, and stationary power, the EPA was bound to come down with an iron fist.
- Staff
- #64
You can add Ridgerunner to the list of closed there doors. He decided to close now before things got any worse.
- Staff
- #65
All of the "pioneers" from back in the day have basically quit tuning. It's crazy to see how much different things around from the mid 2000's.
- Staff
- #66
Most of them have been in contact with a 3 letter govt agency and are being told or else. It's not hard to look around right now and see how free we actually are to do what we want.
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
Meh . . . It is just a matter of time until we crack the code for another solution to replace the problematic fossil fuels currently in use. Fretting over 'da-man' coming down on diesel is just a short term complaint where the marketplace is likely to ditch it anyway. Just like the filament light bulb, gasoline and diesel have had a long run and are overdue for a replacement.
Hydrogen is starting to gain traction. Once we figure out how to cleanly and sustainably make the stuff at scale, I see this quickly phasing-out fossil fuels in the automotive sector (and probably OTR too). Aside from a clean alternative to fossil fuels, hydrogen is arguably safer as (should the stuff leak) it goes straight up as it dissipates.
Related, a step-forward development recently happened in the fusion arena. If this fusion discovery passes peer-review and is scalable, it stands to boost the hydrogen sector as a clean energy source to create the hydrogen.
Once we are over to a clean power source, modders can mod all they want as pollution is no longer part of the equation.
Hydrogen is starting to gain traction. Once we figure out how to cleanly and sustainably make the stuff at scale, I see this quickly phasing-out fossil fuels in the automotive sector (and probably OTR too). Aside from a clean alternative to fossil fuels, hydrogen is arguably safer as (should the stuff leak) it goes straight up as it dissipates.
Related, a step-forward development recently happened in the fusion arena. If this fusion discovery passes peer-review and is scalable, it stands to boost the hydrogen sector as a clean energy source to create the hydrogen.
Once we are over to a clean power source, modders can mod all they want as pollution is no longer part of the equation.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
got any links to that Jay?
Will L.
Well-Known Member
I agree with Jay that diesel/ gas is in the shorter half of its run. But I cannot see anything beating electric.
Our entire electrical infrastructure is being reworked as it is because population would demand it anyways.
while i disagree with wind and solar completely replacing coal plants at the moment- natural gas and hydrogen power plants is coming up.
when working at the plastics to fuel company here, We met a guy that is doing waste plastic direct to electric. Genius idea. He was talking the possibility of building a power plant at any major (1million people base) waste facility. The pyrolysis plant to process is not a huge complex btw. 1/2 acre is big enough for a major plant except for plastic supply yard.
Here in the southwest they could be so many more major solar power plants that it’s amazing. Some business have covered parking structures for the employees and visitors that the “roof” is actually panels. And as technology improves, output is going to get better and cheaper.
As more electric cars hit the road, eventually gas demand will slow and the price will become less. Saudi already proved they can pump it out for 1/3 the cost and still make money. What the now dead king did a few years back put a hurting on plastics to fuel and fracking investors. But there really is so many different energy supplies available, we have nothing to sweat.
On the electric side of things, many people do what I did- hate it, until they drive it. I promise you guys, 95% will fall in love the first time you drive one. Imagine your turbo and engine perfectly spooled pulling at max torque from the moment you foot hits the pedal.
The loss of a beautiful engine roar is the only thing missing, but a simple app that plays sound via throttle could fix that- for us diesel guys we just may need one 12” sub and a couple 6” with 400 watts to get it loud enough! Haha
Our entire electrical infrastructure is being reworked as it is because population would demand it anyways.
while i disagree with wind and solar completely replacing coal plants at the moment- natural gas and hydrogen power plants is coming up.
when working at the plastics to fuel company here, We met a guy that is doing waste plastic direct to electric. Genius idea. He was talking the possibility of building a power plant at any major (1million people base) waste facility. The pyrolysis plant to process is not a huge complex btw. 1/2 acre is big enough for a major plant except for plastic supply yard.
Here in the southwest they could be so many more major solar power plants that it’s amazing. Some business have covered parking structures for the employees and visitors that the “roof” is actually panels. And as technology improves, output is going to get better and cheaper.
As more electric cars hit the road, eventually gas demand will slow and the price will become less. Saudi already proved they can pump it out for 1/3 the cost and still make money. What the now dead king did a few years back put a hurting on plastics to fuel and fracking investors. But there really is so many different energy supplies available, we have nothing to sweat.
On the electric side of things, many people do what I did- hate it, until they drive it. I promise you guys, 95% will fall in love the first time you drive one. Imagine your turbo and engine perfectly spooled pulling at max torque from the moment you foot hits the pedal.
The loss of a beautiful engine roar is the only thing missing, but a simple app that plays sound via throttle could fix that- for us diesel guys we just may need one 12” sub and a couple 6” with 400 watts to get it loud enough! Haha
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
BEV's definitely are appealing. Limiting factor for BVE is the current use of rare earth metals. From what I can tell, the battery recycles easy enough, but like uranium to nuclear power, there is a limit on supply. So am not seeing BEV as a long term solution. Am seeing at-the-source power generation continuing and hydrogen fits this model.
AK, here is an article on hydrogen:
www.wbur.org
A little dated, but with recent buzz of powerhouses like Amazon looking into hydrogen as an energy source, it is at least getting good attention. Presuming hydrogen does expand into the automotive market, it will spank BEV's in terms of refueling. Hydrogen runs around 4 minute to refill which will leave the latte sipping BEV owner with a 30 minute recharge time and always late for life.
Toward fusion, here are a couple reads:
newatlas.com
AK, here is an article on hydrogen:
Why GM And Honda Are Betting Millions On Hydrogen-Powered Cars
The clean-fuel concept has been around for decades, but the market for hydrogen-powered cars is still in its infancy.
www.wbur.org
A little dated, but with recent buzz of powerhouses like Amazon looking into hydrogen as an energy source, it is at least getting good attention. Presuming hydrogen does expand into the automotive market, it will spank BEV's in terms of refueling. Hydrogen runs around 4 minute to refill which will leave the latte sipping BEV owner with a 30 minute recharge time and always late for life.
Toward fusion, here are a couple reads:
Radical hydrogen-boron reactor leapfrogs current nuclear fusion tech
"We are sidestepping all of the scientific challenges that have held fusion energy back for more than half a century," says the director of an Australian company that claims its hydrogen-boron fusion technology is already working a billion times better than expected.
newatlas.com
Are Permanent Magnets the Solution For Delivering Fusion Energy? - Slashdot
According to research published in the journal Physical Review Letters, permanent magnets akin to those used on refrigerators could speed the development of fusion energy. Phys.Org reports: In principle, such magnets can greatly simplify the design and production of twisty fusion facilities...
science.slashdot.org
Will L.
Well-Known Member
On the gm article- there is a response by nielblanchard (sp?) read that response if no others imo.
the hydrogen boron reactors is cool, but a long way off from effecting just like the other reactors that have came out in recent years.
changing the automotive industry is almost always a slow one because the car is the second most expensive item people usually buy. This means it will be a conservative purchase and risking tens of thousands of dollars and something that MAY be a certain percentage better - people just wont gamble it.
electric cars areas far as they sre because of tesla. Because he proved his advances in space, and in ai, the techno world knew his capabilities and knew it would be super reliable. Building the original tesla roadster earned so much undeniable credibility. Before Tesla the big 3 talked about MAYBE by 2060 MANY of the cars COULD be electric.
Now none of them doubt it will be a huge percentage of it by 2030.
The cybertruck, f150ev, Rivian ev truck, and the GMC E Hummer. All will be driven on the streets by owners in 2021. How many of the others? These are just the trucks. Look at the cars. Tesla has done over a million themselves now. Still small potatoes now to how many over all cars are made- But it isn’t like they make one and it goes unsold on a lot for 30 days.
the hydrogen boron reactors is cool, but a long way off from effecting just like the other reactors that have came out in recent years.
changing the automotive industry is almost always a slow one because the car is the second most expensive item people usually buy. This means it will be a conservative purchase and risking tens of thousands of dollars and something that MAY be a certain percentage better - people just wont gamble it.
electric cars areas far as they sre because of tesla. Because he proved his advances in space, and in ai, the techno world knew his capabilities and knew it would be super reliable. Building the original tesla roadster earned so much undeniable credibility. Before Tesla the big 3 talked about MAYBE by 2060 MANY of the cars COULD be electric.
Now none of them doubt it will be a huge percentage of it by 2030.
The cybertruck, f150ev, Rivian ev truck, and the GMC E Hummer. All will be driven on the streets by owners in 2021. How many of the others? These are just the trucks. Look at the cars. Tesla has done over a million themselves now. Still small potatoes now to how many over all cars are made- But it isn’t like they make one and it goes unsold on a lot for 30 days.
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
Will, am actually in 100% agreement that an electric vehicle is the key. Only question on the table is the storage of that energy.
Toward the hydrogen vehicle's commenter (NeilBlanchard), I agree with some of it, but overall see it as shortsighted.
Yes, BEV's are here and getting wider adoption. BUT, there is no recognition of a supply limitation for the materials going into the battery. In comparison, materials necessary to transport and store hydrogen are common / easily recyclable metals.
Noted that at the moment hydrogen is not in mass production. Also, I actually agree with the commenter that in order to make hydrogen work, we CANNOT use carbon based fuels in the loop as that is like current BEV drivers whom think it is pollution free. The inconvenient truth about a current day BEV is that while it does not have a tailpipe, the likelihood of its power source having one *and* polluting is high. The key that this commenter is not grasping is that once we move hydrogen over to a clean production source (solar, fusion, whatever) and get it up to scale, the waste product is heat. From the creation source point, pipelines are able to move the product. Alternatively, we can do home residential generation which has already gone through proof-of-concept where IIRC the home was completely off-grid and used solar to generate excess hydrogen for energy when solar was not sufficient. In terms of home generation, I'd rather have a hydrogen tank leak than what can happen with a monster battery cell hanging on my garage wall (or the added cost of a containment system).
In terms of infrastructure. Granted that it is necessary to build-out a hydrogen refilling system no different than anything else. But the commenter appears to ignore that even the BEV infrastructure also costs money and is a LONG way from full deployment (even 3 years later!). Besides, using this logic, we would have never built-out an infrastructure for those horseless carriages let alone if man wanted to fly he would have been born with wings. And back to the ignored refill time: 30+ minutes to refill a BEV is not going to get it as refilling a current day BEV requires advance planning / strategy (or stress go get home before the battery dies).
There are other key elements that the commenter appears to not grasp like (aside from the limited supply of battery raw materials), at the moment there are still no plans for a BEV to pay for road infrastructure (so thank a BEV driver for that pothole which goes un-fixed). Another factor is that with clean hydrogen generation, the source product is water and the end product is water. In the event of a rare catastrophic event, a BEV retains all the energy within the battery and releases it in a violent manner; in contrast, a hydrogen system will most likely disperse the gas which presents a much lower risk.
So back to the shortsighted aspect. Agree that BEV's are here and gaining market adoption. But barring the ability to cleanly make the battery from a sustainable source, am seeing them as a short term bridge. So while BEV's are a great short game, the market is focusing on hydrogen as the long game. Personally, I would not mind retrofitting my oil burning truck with a watering system
Although can see one downside of hydrogen vehicles: it might make grass grow in Arizona and people would need to mow their lawns
True, and at the same time the devil is in the details where I am simply not seeing towing range statistics or how much cargo they can carry in addition to the trailer. Short wheelbases are not appealing for what I tow either. Given that, I will stick with my carbon based vehicle for a while longer as its towing range is about (and a bit more than) what these BEV's are showing for empty. And, I can easily find a refueling station 24/7 within a 1/2 mile of the highway and get back on the road within 10 minutes.
Put another way, I see these BEV 'trucks' (at the moment) as toys for guys whom played with 'action figures' as kids seeing as no boy would play with a 'doll' . . .
Toward the hydrogen vehicle's commenter (NeilBlanchard), I agree with some of it, but overall see it as shortsighted.
Yes, BEV's are here and getting wider adoption. BUT, there is no recognition of a supply limitation for the materials going into the battery. In comparison, materials necessary to transport and store hydrogen are common / easily recyclable metals.
Noted that at the moment hydrogen is not in mass production. Also, I actually agree with the commenter that in order to make hydrogen work, we CANNOT use carbon based fuels in the loop as that is like current BEV drivers whom think it is pollution free. The inconvenient truth about a current day BEV is that while it does not have a tailpipe, the likelihood of its power source having one *and* polluting is high. The key that this commenter is not grasping is that once we move hydrogen over to a clean production source (solar, fusion, whatever) and get it up to scale, the waste product is heat. From the creation source point, pipelines are able to move the product. Alternatively, we can do home residential generation which has already gone through proof-of-concept where IIRC the home was completely off-grid and used solar to generate excess hydrogen for energy when solar was not sufficient. In terms of home generation, I'd rather have a hydrogen tank leak than what can happen with a monster battery cell hanging on my garage wall (or the added cost of a containment system).
In terms of infrastructure. Granted that it is necessary to build-out a hydrogen refilling system no different than anything else. But the commenter appears to ignore that even the BEV infrastructure also costs money and is a LONG way from full deployment (even 3 years later!). Besides, using this logic, we would have never built-out an infrastructure for those horseless carriages let alone if man wanted to fly he would have been born with wings. And back to the ignored refill time: 30+ minutes to refill a BEV is not going to get it as refilling a current day BEV requires advance planning / strategy (or stress go get home before the battery dies).
There are other key elements that the commenter appears to not grasp like (aside from the limited supply of battery raw materials), at the moment there are still no plans for a BEV to pay for road infrastructure (so thank a BEV driver for that pothole which goes un-fixed). Another factor is that with clean hydrogen generation, the source product is water and the end product is water. In the event of a rare catastrophic event, a BEV retains all the energy within the battery and releases it in a violent manner; in contrast, a hydrogen system will most likely disperse the gas which presents a much lower risk.
So back to the shortsighted aspect. Agree that BEV's are here and gaining market adoption. But barring the ability to cleanly make the battery from a sustainable source, am seeing them as a short term bridge. So while BEV's are a great short game, the market is focusing on hydrogen as the long game. Personally, I would not mind retrofitting my oil burning truck with a watering system
Although can see one downside of hydrogen vehicles: it might make grass grow in Arizona and people would need to mow their lawns True, and at the same time the devil is in the details where I am simply not seeing towing range statistics or how much cargo they can carry in addition to the trailer. Short wheelbases are not appealing for what I tow either. Given that, I will stick with my carbon based vehicle for a while longer as its towing range is about (and a bit more than) what these BEV's are showing for empty. And, I can easily find a refueling station 24/7 within a 1/2 mile of the highway and get back on the road within 10 minutes.
Put another way, I see these BEV 'trucks' (at the moment) as toys for guys whom played with 'action figures' as kids seeing as no boy would play with a 'doll' . . .
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Will L.
Well-Known Member
I agree, and I think the limits of needing kore lithium will push foreword that idea- but if the system truly becomes more cost effective than lpg- you’ll see power plants jump to it first.
we think in mpg terms but there- they live and die by it.
BEV (Battery Electrical Vehicle) is fully dependent on the generator whatever it is.
And having the battery be it’s own generator is beautiful by design. But modified current system of stop the gas and diesel and then pump hydrogen wont happen. They need to build the entire system from scratch. Not saying it cannot be done or would not pay for itself over time.
But BEV doesn’t need an entire ew system. Adding charging systems is just like building a new McDonald’s or 711. Buy or lease the land put the power in place and go. The lithium batteries that everyone is using for everything everywhere now, the price is still going down on because the supplies are being found more and more places. The mining and processing of it is becoming better than that cost is going down. The recycling of it is becoming more efficient. When your Dewalt lithium battery dies it’s not worth it to you to recycle it, everyone throws it in the trash, not supposed to but it’s what happens. Car batteries can’t get thrown in the trash.
November 2019,Tesla filed more new patterns for new improved batteries.
I agree the proof of towing with this round of bev trucks is lacking. You guys that haul heavy loads have no business getting electric pickups at this point. But look at the tesla semi. Hauling 80,000 is yanks it faster than most of the 6.5 pickups here can drive empty and get better mileage doing it. One company cant grow fast enough to make all the needs out there. But the BEV pickups are not targeted towards WarWagon’s parts, BigR’s mega work trailer, etc. Musk called out the number one selling truck- the F150 (that hurts this chevy guy). I just promoted before my appendix blew up. My work truck I just moved out of was an f150. My new position has me in a dmax (yes I feel better). My old job didn’t require the mass of materials and tools and this one does. So a BEV would have been ideal for the last position but not this one. 90%+ truck owners use it as a car most of the time.
Battery cost and life (daily and long term) is the BEV issue. Tesla looses 5% at 50,000 miles. Another 5% at 100,000 miles. But amazingly still at 90% at 150,000 miles. infact at 500,000 miles it is at 80% for 92% of them. The other 8% were closer to 75%.
so drive half million miles and you now need a battery that costs between 3-7 thousand dollars- like buying a gas engine or rebuilding a diesel.
Refilling time at a gas station- or hydrogen is definitely faster than recharge the BEV at a super charger station hands down.
But semi trucks haul the gas/diesel to the stations and gravity dump into the station tanks for over 98% of locations. scully systems was going to revolutionize the fueling methods for fleets and stations but dies a few years into it. Not enough people invested because the profit margin wasnt high enough to risk the investment.
Now, to have your local convenience store built and set up to carry hydrogen? More underground tanks? More investment? For what financial gain would you as a 7-11 owner finally rebuilding your store you owned for 15 years decide to make the leap? It just wont happen at the point of sale. That is why tesla had to pay for it themselves and have the property owner risk his square footage only for an immediate profit income.
notice none are at 7-11. They want customers in and out fast as possible. More like mall parking lots. closest one to me with a lot of chargers is a truck stop at a hotel just between Vegas and Boulder City. Stop in to recharge, eat and gamble. 70% of his business is truckers in the casino and restaurants there talking to a friend working there for years. They have a chunk of parking lot he is planning on building the building for doing charged semi battery replacement while a guy has dinner. The plans that diffent ESemi mfrs explain says full battery swap out in half hour. I know there are cdl drivers here- how long is a normal fill up? This hotel/casino owner is appears to desire the service of battery swaps because he sees low cost investment, immediately returns, and long term returns. Then what if it all goes belly up and goes back to diesel everywhere like what happend to gasahol? drive through truck /rv wash or a couple More pump locations at worst.
yes be could dig up the ground, add more tanks and plumbing, then add the hydrogen. But i guarantee he won’t be one of the first ones to invest his money doing it. So will the hydrogen sellers invest their money at gas stations to do it? Doubt it. They would be smarter to go in competition and open their own stations and stores. That is the whole reason Mr Natural Gas bazillions T Boone Pickens could not make it happen. Some say the patent for the new Tesla battery is what killed him in September- nah- dude was like 200 years old!!
Seriously though, natural gas honestly beats gasoline and diesel by all the emissions concerns. How many thousands of cars and trucks were made for LPG from the factory? How many more thousands have the conversion kits on them? Yeah you still could not get enough of the service stations to convert because of the investment vs profit gains ratio.
Musk knew this and went to BEV because of it. He did the whole on board generation thing. It is trying to solve the supply chain issue why he went away from it. big 3 doesn’t want to own a single gas station for a reason. Musk doesn’t want to either, but he knows it is a needed evil for the short term. Once enough BEVs of all brands are out there (why he shares so much of his tech for free to competition) then all the malls and restaurants will add chargers and refill your car and belly at Olive Garden or macy’s shopping.
A different example- your chainsaw. You need gas power if you cut trees all day long. Battery power is quiet and lighter but technology cant compete with gas. But would you buy a hydrogen fueled chainsaw to replace your stihl? Pretend you can get a refill of hydrogen just as easy as gas right now where you do. Would you buy your next chainsaw the new type? Too much risk of $500 to save what per month in fuel or long term cost?
Stihl has lithium battery chainsaws now for home owners. How long before they ever off LPG or fuel cell chainsaws? It is just too much to invest for almost everyone.
could it happen eventually? Yes. But you need so many individuals and corporations to all invest to make it work. I see it decades away. And by then I think plugging in your car to gain 10% charge in 5 minutes while in 7-11 will happen easier.
i think major power production plants is far more likely for areas that arent riddled with sunlight.
For at home use of power the argument of battery dangers in solar/wind is easily compared to a hydrogen tank. It’s like a/c power vs d/c power Edison vs Tesla (the real one) saying which is more dangerous- bologna- they both have dangers. As easy as showing lithium fires or lead acid battery fires is the Hindenburg footage, only now demo one gallon under pressure exploding. If you were McGyver wanting to blow up the bad guys, would you rather the 10 car batteries on the left side of the garage or the 2 gallons of compressed hydrogen?
we think in mpg terms but there- they live and die by it.
BEV (Battery Electrical Vehicle) is fully dependent on the generator whatever it is.
And having the battery be it’s own generator is beautiful by design. But modified current system of stop the gas and diesel and then pump hydrogen wont happen. They need to build the entire system from scratch. Not saying it cannot be done or would not pay for itself over time.
But BEV doesn’t need an entire ew system. Adding charging systems is just like building a new McDonald’s or 711. Buy or lease the land put the power in place and go. The lithium batteries that everyone is using for everything everywhere now, the price is still going down on because the supplies are being found more and more places. The mining and processing of it is becoming better than that cost is going down. The recycling of it is becoming more efficient. When your Dewalt lithium battery dies it’s not worth it to you to recycle it, everyone throws it in the trash, not supposed to but it’s what happens. Car batteries can’t get thrown in the trash.
November 2019,Tesla filed more new patterns for new improved batteries.
I agree the proof of towing with this round of bev trucks is lacking. You guys that haul heavy loads have no business getting electric pickups at this point. But look at the tesla semi. Hauling 80,000 is yanks it faster than most of the 6.5 pickups here can drive empty and get better mileage doing it. One company cant grow fast enough to make all the needs out there. But the BEV pickups are not targeted towards WarWagon’s parts, BigR’s mega work trailer, etc. Musk called out the number one selling truck- the F150 (that hurts this chevy guy). I just promoted before my appendix blew up. My work truck I just moved out of was an f150. My new position has me in a dmax (yes I feel better). My old job didn’t require the mass of materials and tools and this one does. So a BEV would have been ideal for the last position but not this one. 90%+ truck owners use it as a car most of the time.
Battery cost and life (daily and long term) is the BEV issue. Tesla looses 5% at 50,000 miles. Another 5% at 100,000 miles. But amazingly still at 90% at 150,000 miles. infact at 500,000 miles it is at 80% for 92% of them. The other 8% were closer to 75%.
so drive half million miles and you now need a battery that costs between 3-7 thousand dollars- like buying a gas engine or rebuilding a diesel.
Refilling time at a gas station- or hydrogen is definitely faster than recharge the BEV at a super charger station hands down.
But semi trucks haul the gas/diesel to the stations and gravity dump into the station tanks for over 98% of locations. scully systems was going to revolutionize the fueling methods for fleets and stations but dies a few years into it. Not enough people invested because the profit margin wasnt high enough to risk the investment.
Now, to have your local convenience store built and set up to carry hydrogen? More underground tanks? More investment? For what financial gain would you as a 7-11 owner finally rebuilding your store you owned for 15 years decide to make the leap? It just wont happen at the point of sale. That is why tesla had to pay for it themselves and have the property owner risk his square footage only for an immediate profit income.
notice none are at 7-11. They want customers in and out fast as possible. More like mall parking lots. closest one to me with a lot of chargers is a truck stop at a hotel just between Vegas and Boulder City. Stop in to recharge, eat and gamble. 70% of his business is truckers in the casino and restaurants there talking to a friend working there for years. They have a chunk of parking lot he is planning on building the building for doing charged semi battery replacement while a guy has dinner. The plans that diffent ESemi mfrs explain says full battery swap out in half hour. I know there are cdl drivers here- how long is a normal fill up? This hotel/casino owner is appears to desire the service of battery swaps because he sees low cost investment, immediately returns, and long term returns. Then what if it all goes belly up and goes back to diesel everywhere like what happend to gasahol? drive through truck /rv wash or a couple More pump locations at worst.
yes be could dig up the ground, add more tanks and plumbing, then add the hydrogen. But i guarantee he won’t be one of the first ones to invest his money doing it. So will the hydrogen sellers invest their money at gas stations to do it? Doubt it. They would be smarter to go in competition and open their own stations and stores. That is the whole reason Mr Natural Gas bazillions T Boone Pickens could not make it happen. Some say the patent for the new Tesla battery is what killed him in September- nah- dude was like 200 years old!!
Seriously though, natural gas honestly beats gasoline and diesel by all the emissions concerns. How many thousands of cars and trucks were made for LPG from the factory? How many more thousands have the conversion kits on them? Yeah you still could not get enough of the service stations to convert because of the investment vs profit gains ratio.
Musk knew this and went to BEV because of it. He did the whole on board generation thing. It is trying to solve the supply chain issue why he went away from it. big 3 doesn’t want to own a single gas station for a reason. Musk doesn’t want to either, but he knows it is a needed evil for the short term. Once enough BEVs of all brands are out there (why he shares so much of his tech for free to competition) then all the malls and restaurants will add chargers and refill your car and belly at Olive Garden or macy’s shopping.
A different example- your chainsaw. You need gas power if you cut trees all day long. Battery power is quiet and lighter but technology cant compete with gas. But would you buy a hydrogen fueled chainsaw to replace your stihl? Pretend you can get a refill of hydrogen just as easy as gas right now where you do. Would you buy your next chainsaw the new type? Too much risk of $500 to save what per month in fuel or long term cost?
Stihl has lithium battery chainsaws now for home owners. How long before they ever off LPG or fuel cell chainsaws? It is just too much to invest for almost everyone.
could it happen eventually? Yes. But you need so many individuals and corporations to all invest to make it work. I see it decades away. And by then I think plugging in your car to gain 10% charge in 5 minutes while in 7-11 will happen easier.
i think major power production plants is far more likely for areas that arent riddled with sunlight.
For at home use of power the argument of battery dangers in solar/wind is easily compared to a hydrogen tank. It’s like a/c power vs d/c power Edison vs Tesla (the real one) saying which is more dangerous- bologna- they both have dangers. As easy as showing lithium fires or lead acid battery fires is the Hindenburg footage, only now demo one gallon under pressure exploding. If you were McGyver wanting to blow up the bad guys, would you rather the 10 car batteries on the left side of the garage or the 2 gallons of compressed hydrogen?
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
Sadly, BEV's are hiding from a bunch of inconvenient truths, as noted a couple are:
} Mooching off a fragile electric grid will lead to outages if the utility companies are not able to upgrade ahead of this storm. While it is 'easy' to drop a charging station, this will not last for long as supply will suffer.
} Mooching off an already in-arrears highway infrastructure.
So, sure, the BEV business model fits-in great with today's freeloader thinking as it makes everybody else pay to keep that Ponzi scheme going. Find a way to have the BEV pay its fair share, and I will consider it for non-utility use. Put another way, let see what happens to all those purchase decisions once the BEV pays full bore
And in terms of the 'industry leader', I'll pass on that product line for the foreseeable future as:
} Vehicle owners must sign a gag-order (aka: binding arbitration) in order to receive warranty work. There is a reason why the Federal Government needs oversight and this model bypasses the defect reporting process.
} Construction facilities are currently a recipe of why Unions exist. So far, nobody else has managed to prevent OSHA from unrestricted access to facilities over legitimate concerns, so why should one? This is 2020, NOT 1920!
Am actually glad the the Hindenburg was finally touched on as it gives the opportunity to expand on history given the benefit of technological advancements. There is enough evidence to suggest that the hydrogen was not the source of ignition where it may have come from the skin; I will let the better experts continue to debate this one. A key element to the analysis was that the Hindenburg's hydrogen was held within *bladders* and not tanks. Were the hydrogen contained in tanks, I personally doubt that it would have flown. In any event, that zeppelin was a recipe for disaster and now we have working examples of what *not* to do. Real tragedy was that a bunch of innocent people had to pay for society's benefit.
So, back to storing hydrogen. Yes, I will gladly take above ground *tanks* with hydrogen at my house any day as a leak will vent straight up and harmlessly dissipate in short order Naturally, I would not put hydrogen tanks in an enclosed area as that makes about as much sense as doing the same with LP. And should a spark happen to hit a hydrogen leak? Meh, I have seen enough videos of LP tanks light without going boom
} Mooching off a fragile electric grid will lead to outages if the utility companies are not able to upgrade ahead of this storm. While it is 'easy' to drop a charging station, this will not last for long as supply will suffer.
} Mooching off an already in-arrears highway infrastructure.
So, sure, the BEV business model fits-in great with today's freeloader thinking as it makes everybody else pay to keep that Ponzi scheme going. Find a way to have the BEV pay its fair share, and I will consider it for non-utility use. Put another way, let see what happens to all those purchase decisions once the BEV pays full bore
And in terms of the 'industry leader', I'll pass on that product line for the foreseeable future as:
} Vehicle owners must sign a gag-order (aka: binding arbitration) in order to receive warranty work. There is a reason why the Federal Government needs oversight and this model bypasses the defect reporting process.
} Construction facilities are currently a recipe of why Unions exist. So far, nobody else has managed to prevent OSHA from unrestricted access to facilities over legitimate concerns, so why should one? This is 2020, NOT 1920!
Am actually glad the the Hindenburg was finally touched on as it gives the opportunity to expand on history given the benefit of technological advancements. There is enough evidence to suggest that the hydrogen was not the source of ignition where it may have come from the skin; I will let the better experts continue to debate this one. A key element to the analysis was that the Hindenburg's hydrogen was held within *bladders* and not tanks. Were the hydrogen contained in tanks, I personally doubt that it would have flown. In any event, that zeppelin was a recipe for disaster and now we have working examples of what *not* to do. Real tragedy was that a bunch of innocent people had to pay for society's benefit.
So, back to storing hydrogen. Yes, I will gladly take above ground *tanks* with hydrogen at my house any day as a leak will vent straight up and harmlessly dissipate in short order
Naturally, I would not put hydrogen tanks in an enclosed area as that makes about as much sense as doing the same with LP. And should a spark happen to hit a hydrogen leak? Meh, I have seen enough videos of LP tanks light without going boom
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Agree 100% that taxing the users equally should happen.
I have friends that worked on the giga plant while being built. One sent me a photo of him with the osha inspector on site. Is there rumors that osha wasn’t allowed to inspect or something?
I am HUGE osha supporter- haven’t heard anything about BEV/ tesla and anti osha besides that above myth.
Nv is a right to work state so having all union, no union, or mixture of them is common place here. Good and bad in all 3 situations. I will leave this part alone other than saying I have worked in all 3, and am happy with my current contract... worked in some crap holes that were dangerous and why I am pro osha.
When i mentioned Hindenburg- only that fighting companiesMay do it and is an unfair assessment just like killing the elephant was with ac/dc war.
fumes straight up is huge plus - exact opposite of lpg. gas, diesel In liquid as bad or worse than lpg.
Problem with above ground tanks is space and idiots. Cities have the most people and most idiots. More idiots per capita too, I am quite sure. Man these people are dumb.
More huge above ground tanks simply dont fit in a convince store parking lot. Underground gas tanks cost zero parking spaces and zero store footage.
idiots have hit their cars and shot pistols/ high powered rifles at the tanks in Vegas. Couple dozen years back a dou was arrested, one with a rifle across the street and his partner with a dragonz breath filled 12ga next door. Sounds like terror plot but the two were fired for stealing on the job a few nights before. Simple vandalism in a big way was there attempt.
Popo had local news squash the story because of repeatability. Since then double walled tanks are mandatory law got pushed through. Out of interest when were clearing that part of the storage yard, I cut open that tank. He shot it 4 times, (my guess was ak) he hit all 4 in a 1.75” group. After showing it to co workers, owners and a couple cop friends, I set it on a wood table and stabbed a Phillips screw driver through it in one blow it was so thin from stretching. 1500 gallon lpg. The double wall law- yeah the lpg industry fought and won so only gas/diesel required here. SMH. The two largest fuel suppliers in Nv, will not dispense above ground now from that. Only the prefilled ones. They are 2 of the top 5 in Az. They are expanding. I am telling ya, you need a complete infrastructure all the way to point of sale.
The electrical add on as the BEV market increases is very manageable through 75% of the country. The Mfrs feed info often to the electric suppliers just like walmart. And the power consumption of a regular gas pump is 18-20% that of a charger. So the increase isnt like it’s double. Know that the oil and fuel company I worked for owned dozens of stations, hundreds of trucks, dozens of fuel haulers, and the largest tank farms of all the competitors at the time. I over saw the electrical build out and changes at the plants. (I are a sparky and mechaneck). I still get calls and visit them for input and maybe get fat lunches and fillups while there from time to time.
I also am insanely related to folk(s) at the power company that does new construction planning. So I REALLY see and here all sides of these issues and much of it on a minimum weekly basis, sometimes too much daily but...Haha
figure this- your electric clothes dryer consumes WAY more power than the biggest at home tesla charger. And just like any industrial electric system- 3 phase power saves tons of load and efficiency. The electrical draw on the pump in the gas station now- as a 3 phase is like 2 of your driers operating at the same time. The pump at the plant filling the semi that hauls the gas there now? Haha 50 hp 3 phase.
So yes recharging a BEV is more electric use, but dont go thinking it is more than twice as much as what us gas and diesel drivers cause now. I’ve seen ridiculous numbers anti E people came up with. But some of us can write down the ohms law wheel out of memory.
And don’t think the power company doesnt want the expansion. That is their income. In super extreme cases like Northern Nv where they built the giga factory, the power company got to pass on a chunk of time based renovating into the new construction build.
I am sure there are some places that wanted zero industrial growth and the required added power draw was not welcome. But to be fair, a person could have built a grocery store and demand the power too. how many chargers needed to equal a grocery store?
Remember at home the refrigerator is the #2 power draw in over 50% of homes as of 2010.
A super charger station is the mega draw worst case scenario to add in and it is like adding a 480v motor. Most all industry uses 480v motors everywhere. Pumps, lathes, any machinery... and the modern version charges 75 miles worth of driving in 5 minutes. A 1 hour charge lets you drive 1,000 miles. Compare how long fill up of gas to drive whatever you drive daily those distances. Yes still more time, but a lot of cost savings.
Expecting to see diesel prices go up, I consider wmo again in the future for my cheaper fuel. But it is messy, time consuming, and requires investment cash. Thinking about over all cost savings of BEV, some extra time at the “pump” isn’t a biggie. And another decade longer, times will be less and longer drive miles.
I have friends that worked on the giga plant while being built. One sent me a photo of him with the osha inspector on site. Is there rumors that osha wasn’t allowed to inspect or something?
I am HUGE osha supporter- haven’t heard anything about BEV/ tesla and anti osha besides that above myth.
Nv is a right to work state so having all union, no union, or mixture of them is common place here. Good and bad in all 3 situations. I will leave this part alone other than saying I have worked in all 3, and am happy with my current contract... worked in some crap holes that were dangerous and why I am pro osha.
When i mentioned Hindenburg- only that fighting companiesMay do it and is an unfair assessment just like killing the elephant was with ac/dc war.
fumes straight up is huge plus - exact opposite of lpg. gas, diesel In liquid as bad or worse than lpg.
Problem with above ground tanks is space and idiots. Cities have the most people and most idiots. More idiots per capita too, I am quite sure. Man these people are dumb.
More huge above ground tanks simply dont fit in a convince store parking lot. Underground gas tanks cost zero parking spaces and zero store footage.
idiots have hit their cars and shot pistols/ high powered rifles at the tanks in Vegas. Couple dozen years back a dou was arrested, one with a rifle across the street and his partner with a dragonz breath filled 12ga next door. Sounds like terror plot but the two were fired for stealing on the job a few nights before. Simple vandalism in a big way was there attempt.
Popo had local news squash the story because of repeatability. Since then double walled tanks are mandatory law got pushed through. Out of interest when were clearing that part of the storage yard, I cut open that tank. He shot it 4 times, (my guess was ak) he hit all 4 in a 1.75” group. After showing it to co workers, owners and a couple cop friends, I set it on a wood table and stabbed a Phillips screw driver through it in one blow it was so thin from stretching. 1500 gallon lpg. The double wall law- yeah the lpg industry fought and won so only gas/diesel required here. SMH. The two largest fuel suppliers in Nv, will not dispense above ground now from that. Only the prefilled ones. They are 2 of the top 5 in Az. They are expanding. I am telling ya, you need a complete infrastructure all the way to point of sale.
The electrical add on as the BEV market increases is very manageable through 75% of the country. The Mfrs feed info often to the electric suppliers just like walmart. And the power consumption of a regular gas pump is 18-20% that of a charger. So the increase isnt like it’s double. Know that the oil and fuel company I worked for owned dozens of stations, hundreds of trucks, dozens of fuel haulers, and the largest tank farms of all the competitors at the time. I over saw the electrical build out and changes at the plants. (I are a sparky and mechaneck). I still get calls and visit them for input and maybe get fat lunches and fillups while there from time to time.
I also am insanely related to folk(s) at the power company that does new construction planning. So I REALLY see and here all sides of these issues and much of it on a minimum weekly basis, sometimes too much daily but...Haha
figure this- your electric clothes dryer consumes WAY more power than the biggest at home tesla charger. And just like any industrial electric system- 3 phase power saves tons of load and efficiency. The electrical draw on the pump in the gas station now- as a 3 phase is like 2 of your driers operating at the same time. The pump at the plant filling the semi that hauls the gas there now? Haha 50 hp 3 phase.
So yes recharging a BEV is more electric use, but dont go thinking it is more than twice as much as what us gas and diesel drivers cause now. I’ve seen ridiculous numbers anti E people came up with. But some of us can write down the ohms law wheel out of memory.
And don’t think the power company doesnt want the expansion. That is their income. In super extreme cases like Northern Nv where they built the giga factory, the power company got to pass on a chunk of time based renovating into the new construction build.
I am sure there are some places that wanted zero industrial growth and the required added power draw was not welcome. But to be fair, a person could have built a grocery store and demand the power too. how many chargers needed to equal a grocery store?
Remember at home the refrigerator is the #2 power draw in over 50% of homes as of 2010.
A super charger station is the mega draw worst case scenario to add in and it is like adding a 480v motor. Most all industry uses 480v motors everywhere. Pumps, lathes, any machinery... and the modern version charges 75 miles worth of driving in 5 minutes. A 1 hour charge lets you drive 1,000 miles. Compare how long fill up of gas to drive whatever you drive daily those distances. Yes still more time, but a lot of cost savings.
Expecting to see diesel prices go up, I consider wmo again in the future for my cheaper fuel. But it is messy, time consuming, and requires investment cash. Thinking about over all cost savings of BEV, some extra time at the “pump” isn’t a biggie. And another decade longer, times will be less and longer drive miles.
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
No rumor about it:
Reno Gazette Journal
www.rgj.com
(Non pay-walled: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/othe...la-avoided-a-full-osha-inspection/ar-BB10Hwpl)
Officially, the factory gets to claim that OSHA was allowed entry, but in reality OSHA was denied an unrestricted inspection as signed by the Court. Were you or I to pull that stunt against OSHA, we would be in jail for contempt. But, am sure that this is all somebody's version of fake news, right?
Will L.
Well-Known Member
I haven’t seen that, thanks.
Ive been on the job and had nv osha inspections that went good and bad.
Twice I’ve seen companies deny entry after the warrant is presented. One place the owner threatened the osha guy and the cop. He went in cuffs. Next day he came back, closed business- 35-40out of work. He reopened a year later with 30 workers all minimum wage. We all made better than union wages before that happened.
The other place owner deny entry after warrant. I was the safety guy and was next to the osha inspector and cop when he said leave. They turned and walked away. I worked there another year and they never returned. Owner said they sent him fine warning letters for a while then it all just went away. the whole thing was over a guy that cut his hand on a screw style hose clamp on an air hose. Funny thing was the injured guy cut the hose, repaired it himself. The head mechanic told him remove the clamp and install the correct kind which we had in stock, but he didn’t. Couple weeks later got cut using the auto retract. Guess what my next safety meeting covered? Haha. Funny thing is that shop owner had one of the safest shops I ever saw. I recorded the errors I saw and that owner never blinked- fixed it all.
seeing things like giga factory denied burns me. Governor sisolak (sp?) mentioned above is not in my favorite guy list. Bases his election on union groups- So I wonder (sarcasm) how this didn’t get pushed in local news... I support Union. Just almost nothing else of sisolak.
Ive been on the job and had nv osha inspections that went good and bad.
Twice I’ve seen companies deny entry after the warrant is presented. One place the owner threatened the osha guy and the cop. He went in cuffs. Next day he came back, closed business- 35-40out of work. He reopened a year later with 30 workers all minimum wage. We all made better than union wages before that happened.
The other place owner deny entry after warrant. I was the safety guy and was next to the osha inspector and cop when he said leave. They turned and walked away. I worked there another year and they never returned. Owner said they sent him fine warning letters for a while then it all just went away. the whole thing was over a guy that cut his hand on a screw style hose clamp on an air hose. Funny thing was the injured guy cut the hose, repaired it himself. The head mechanic told him remove the clamp and install the correct kind which we had in stock, but he didn’t. Couple weeks later got cut using the auto retract. Guess what my next safety meeting covered? Haha. Funny thing is that shop owner had one of the safest shops I ever saw. I recorded the errors I saw and that owner never blinked- fixed it all.
seeing things like giga factory denied burns me. Governor sisolak (sp?) mentioned above is not in my favorite guy list. Bases his election on union groups- So I wonder (sarcasm) how this didn’t get pushed in local news... I support Union. Just almost nothing else of sisolak.
FellowTraveler
Well-Known Member
I have wondered, all is well until the grid is down then how do they charge those energy hogs?
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Having spent years working in the petroleum fuel supply side of things as mechanic and electrician- I can tell you 100% that if the grid is down so is the ability to get gas or diesel.
If you don’t have the ability to make your own fuel, how would you fill the tank?
Try your best to find gas stations that have their own back up generator big enough to power the pumps and clean enough signal to run the computer- Not likely.
Electric has the advantage of solar power on your rooftop can charge the car/truck if needed. Granted slowly if they didn’t invest in battery storage, but not like folks can slowly get gasoline or diesel to trickle into their car from stuff at the house. If you run natural gas car and have spent the bucks to fill your car from that at home- ok.
Sorry, but zombie day doesn’t hurt a tesla nut as bad as it does a modern diesel nut. I can get used oil to drive my db2 6.5, but a duramax/ cummins/ powerstroke or ds4 6.5 isn’t gonna.
FellowTraveler
Well-Known Member
Yep, mechanical fuel systems rock for SHTF situations.......