97 hard start suddenly

[royunion]

97 service van. Noticed filter (under driver area) leaking. New filter but the water sensor was the source. Found a new one, put it on, but it leaked through the sensor screw. Put the original non sensor one on, took out the sensor screw, jb weld on the upper threads, blasted oil off and dry with carb cleaner. Screwed it in two days later reinstalled. Took a lot of tightening over and over to stop the leak around the rubber washer. Each time, the engine was hard to start due air in the system, but leak is now fixed no more little puddle spot under the filter.

But the hard starting returned if sat for more than three hours. I even had to put in a jumper wire to power the lift pump pre start to get the filter full and pressure

But now even with no leak it is impossible to start without starting fluid or carb cleaner or starting fluid. I have an intercooler so it is a long way through the turbo at the rear of the engine down to the intercooler and back up into the manifold. My point is by the time the vapor makes into the manifold and cylinders the crank time is long enough to let the glow plugs be cold.

From cold I use starting fluid lightly, from warm I use carb cleaner and it starts right into a smooth idle.

It threw a 216 and 380 on one time hard cold start. No more codes since.

All this started with me thinking it was bad glow plugs. Ordered El cheapo Chinese glow plugs, and replaced three before dark and started it on the starting fluid sitting three days cold.

The van carries a small generator and starter charger. Got the batteries up enough to fire it up.

Then it seemed fine, and the removed glow plugs were fine. They are 11 year old Bosch DuraTerm

So it started instantly fine four times, up to a four hour spread.

Now it is unpredictable if it will restart even from hot

Fuel pressure does not seem to be a problem and it holds 5 psi off, running 18 cranking and running. There is a mechanical gauge at the IP inlet.

It has never thrown a crank position sensor ((CPS) code but but I am thinking it might be a bad cps

Anyone got other guesses what it might be??

 

[dbrannon79]

First off, get the cheaop GP's out if the engine and get some delco 60g's do not ever run generic glow plugs. @Will can tell you what damage he had happen with them.

second, do you have a clear return hose on the IP? this will tell you a lot by seeing if you still have air intrusion.

on these engines you can test for a bad CPS by disconnecting the optic sensor on the top of the IP and trying to start it. it will thow a engine code but will run, will require an extended cranking time for it to start. you can also do the same for the optic sensor by disconnecting the CPS and trying to start it.

Warning, I'm sure you already know this, but using any starting fluid and not disabling the glow plugs will destroy the engine in the most unwanted way.

start off with the clear return line off the IP looking for any air bubbles, then verify fuel pressure after the filter key on engine off and running.

 

[royunion]

@dbrannon79 thanks for that, but unplugging causes the need for a new KOKO procedure, it being a van and pushing 18 psi there is likely no air and I won't be able to see the return line well anyway. It is an intermittent no start.

More like what I have is an odd no inject problem.

The Bosch DuraTem is a good product and I will likely removed the three new ones and put the Bosch back in.

When I had to repair the Hartridge Stanadyne optioned test stand, aside from the 5 and 12 volt regulator blown, the CPS being inop will cause a no inject either defective or below 200 rpm.

O ce that happens only a starting fluid will get it going.

My glow plug circuit does not cycle, so after at least a 15 foot air charge trip to the cylinder through the intercooler, the glow plug is cold enough to not matter

 

[dbrannon79]

we are working with a 6.5 diesel correct? it should not cause the need for the KOKO procedure. also 18psi!! that is a bit much for these engines. you should only have max of 8-10 psi on these IP's.

 

[ak diesel driver]

The old original duraterms were pretty good. So at 11 years old he probably has the old originals. The newer ones QC went out the window.

 

[royunion]

@dbrannon79 The Stanadyne DS4 service manual says "working pressure 5 to 18 psi. If you unplug it and try to start it, it is the same as putting on a new one as far as the ECM is concerned. It will need a TDC relearn, aka the KOKO procedure at minimum

Actually the IP can take around 22 psi before the idle will runaway. Been working that way with good crisp throttle since 2013.

I worked with a Stanadyne shop / rebuilder. That 8 - 10 psi is the best the OEM pumps will do at idle, my fuel pressure is regulated

 

[MrMarty51]

Welcome to the forum Roy.

 

[Will L.]

I would still suspect occasional air intrusion from the ffm.
Remember the clear line is the primary test that stanadyne wrote for us to do when I was working at the dealership. The clear we used to use was pvc based and only lasted a few years but now you can buy from https://fuel-line.com/ and it is rated for the ethonal in the new diesel fuel. So far the guys testing it have had it running on the trucks 4 years no problem and its staying flexible. Rated to 25psi and up to nitro methane fuel so looks like a great long term answer.
Just because it is harder to see in a van doesn’t mean the diagnostics change on it.

As to the pressure range you state- I think you might have a misprinted manual.
I went through the classes at Stanadyne, went out and double checked at 3 dealerships, 2 that still had the paper manuals in the back and all that have it online from GM. They all said ds4 is 8-14 psi. The books are from mid 90’s and obviously online access was current. iirc it was about 7 years ago when I went and checked. I don’t have my literature anymore, I donated it all years ago and refuse to own or work on a ds4, Im a die hard db guy.

I can’t tell you what the amount of miles that gets put on vans without the doghouse and the amount of go pro use is for diagnostics, but it is a lot.
Working regular shops I always added 20% time for it.

I normally don’t want unfiltered fuel- but a clean one gallon fuel and hose from it to the ip. Test if that solves it just to identify this is the problem. If so- then replace the ffm.

With so many people ditching the ffm and going to the fass or Airdogg systems, I would think a used one shouldn’t be too bad. Facebook, ebay, forum sales ads, etc. getting less likey to find them in junkyards. You will absolutely draw air in from that location if you repair isn’t perfect.

The old bosch duraterms were good ones. They were the original self regulating ones bosch had before making a slight change to the 80034 which was ok- that later went to total nightmare and ruined engines. It’s a coin flip honestly. The ones labeled as duraterms on the plug I would think is ok to keep running. If they don’t then I would change them asap. My ruined optimizer is one of many from it.
The only reliable ones are AC Delco 60G but there is a TON of cko ones that look so good and so do the boxes - so it has to come from an authorized distributor or a well known reseller like Leroy.

If you were sucking air for a while- it causes massive cavitation inside the ip and ruins the head & rotor. Running a thinker fuel helps diagnose that- basically non ethanol fuel and mid in a really heavy dose of your 2stroke oil or Stanandyne treatment which ever you normally add at all fill ups. Just use about three times the normal dose.

Unplugging either cps or optic will NOT cause a koko or relearn requirement.
It will be hard starting but should start and if it doesn’t that tells you the other component or its wiring is toast. Do one at a time with the other plugged in.
If both are good it will tell you and the moment you plug them both back in it will be back to normal.
The difference is if you move the optic sensor. There is a trick of scratching a witness mark on one before removing it with a pick. If you get it perfectly back in that spot it won’t need it. But if you get it off slightly then you have to do koko.

If you set up a battery charger and wire in a switch to power the lift pump to keep the pressure on while it site for 3-4 hours since you said 3 hours is long enough for the problem- the battery charger keep the batteries from dying. Then disconnect the charger just before test starting. If the hard start is gone- you have either a bad check valve in your lift pump of you have air intrusion.

If you have wired in a switch to force the lift pump to prime the filter after changing it- just let it sit the 3-4 hours. Then with ignition key on so the fso is open, force the lift pump for 4-5 minutes then turn key off a moment to refire the glow plugs and start it. The lift pump just before starting will flow plenty of fuel through the ip to identify air.

There is also the possibility some of the jb weld or other debris is causing a restriction. Remember the small screen inside the ffm and the one st the fuel inlet under the fitting of the ds4 inlet fitting- you remember the one you don’t want to have people replace from 5/16” to 3/8” because you think there is a smog law against it? That fitting. iirc and 99.9% I remember who you are- I’m surprised with your concean of all factory parts unmodified for emissions laws you were willing to attempt a non dot approved repair for your fuel filter system. Good for you- fight the man!

Outside of the higher fuel pressure causing the idle increase, there is other issues the higher pressure causes in both ds4 and db pumps. Years of running my hot rod db pumps over 30psi revealed a few. Before I swore of ds4 i had one modified and it ran right at 30psi. It shortened some life of the seals in the ip itself. The problems start much how you are now. Checking for it is very difficult in pickups or even generators- in a van- wow. But there is a tiny weep hole that will drip a couple drops of fuel into the valley after having been shut off this is indicative the seal between fuel and oil is gone bad. Over time it will start dripping fuel even with engine running. I never heard of it dropping more than a few drops at a time. It doesn’t need to. What happens is that seal start sucking air into the ip directly. The other seals on the ip suffer same issues but they can lead to a constant drip so easier to detect normally. When that happens the ip comes out to reseal. It used to be a full rebuild made sense because the parts cost vs labor cost - it made sense and cents. Now with parts availability and prices- idk. You ds4 guys are in a pickle and have to choose. The fact that you patched together the ffm rather than replacing it tells me you might just remove and reseal the ip.

A warning against plugging the weep hole. Like a weep hole in the the waterpump warns you before catastrophic failure and you send a fan flying like a giant chinese star- so does this weep hole warn before catastrophic failure but in this case you still have starting issues but less frequently and not as bad- followed later by high rpm power issues then (again if you plugged the hole) you now start pushing diesel fuel into the crank case. It nicely cleans your bearings for a day or so- then when contamination is enough- you wile out bearings and spin them or get full engine seizure. So… if know that you are replacing a he whole engine anyways and don’t care- yup a little JB in the weeper will let it run another 5-15k miles.
With the amount of lift pressure you are running it might be worth taking a sniff of the ole dip stick just for practice at this point.

Remember old cell phone video cameras and some duct tape are good cheap ways to watch that clear line if you don’t have a go-pro. There is tons of low cost cameras on ebay as an option as well.
But imo just like a spare tire for any car, a spare pmd for any ds4, these are part of the cost owning one. In a van- owning a camera to see and some small mobile led lights is just part of the cost of ownership of a van that proves to pay for themselves. Just because it is difficult for your rig doesn’t mean the number one most common problem in the fuel system is going to go away.
And with your higher psi pump that speeds up the hose degradation if you didn’t already replace it all with the sae30R9 or higher when you added whatever pump you did. Remember the older type hose doesn’t withstand the ethanol in modern diesel fuel.

 

[royunion]

@Will L. Thanks for all of that. It was running 14 psi until I put on the new filter. Then I guess freer flow upped the pressure. By "ffm" I am guessing that is "fuel filter mount"??? No JB Weld possible in the fuel, that was a small amount only on the upper threads of the sensor screw to seal the threads which was threaded into the plastic part of the water sensor and none was or is exposed, it just permanently seals the threads internally.

I am going to change the back flow valve back to the flap door style, and remove the torlon ball check valve style. (Delphi FA10016) which I have and removed for the torlon ball style three years ago.

I am ordering a new Android boroscope because my old one crapped out so I can see down in the crooks and valleys.

But right now with all the cranking, even with a full charge on the batteries, the cranking speed has been going suspiciously uncomfortably slower, so I am going to put on my spare new starter right now.

Also the fuel filter mount I am not comfortable with because I can wiggle the filter by hand and cause a leak from the slip on top of it when running under pressure. I was just about to cut my own neoprene washer for the water sensor when that leak stopped on its own. I am going to eventually take that "new" fuel filter off and replace it with another, since I have quite a few new ones of different brands lying around.

The problems all started by changing that filter.

I agree somewhere there is an air leak into the the fuel system because it once held easily 10 psi at shut off pretty much forever.

I do not have a switch wired into the lift pump but basically a temporary hot wire from the cigarette lighter circuit cut in the middle I can reach down and unscrew a wire nut to contact the other part of the wire, and it is a boogie woogie work around.

I knew about and agree the seals on the IP are now a concern, but I am sort of a do not fix it if it ain't broke kind of guy.

The new lighted boroscope should give more inspection capabilities and I will be swapping the starter today or tomorrow. . I know that is a now new side shoot result of this extended cranking scenario caused by the filter change. I know there is no fuel vacuum issue because the cap is vent hole drilled.

The only other thing I can suspect is the coolant temp sensor not telling the ECM proper info for the glow plug circuit to function. It did throw the P0380 code one time - but that was a cold start on starting fluid. But I had also just added a bottle of Rislone Hyper-cool to the cooling system and tried to bleed air because it also has the cool heater at idle issue and previously at shut off the air could be heard gurgling at shut off.

I am trying to stay away from replacing that CPS all all costs even though I have it as spare part already.

 

[dbrannon79]

FFM = Fuel Filter Manager. it's the fuel filter housing behind the intake that houses the fuel heater and water sensor and filter.

 

[dbrannon79]

Keep in mind about the two rubber hoses that run from this FFM up under the intake, one supplies fuel to the IP and the other is a drain going to a tee valve in front of the engine. these rubber hose are down in the valley of the engine in all the heat. they get brittle over time and can cause you greif. I have my FFM relocated out of this area on one truck and on the other completely eliminated it and run a filter with a clear bowl up on the firewall that allowed me to route the rubber hose up over the intake for easy access!

Here is some photos..

 

[MrMarty51]

Brand new FFM with the feed the beast mod from Leroy Diesel aint all that much money for what it does.
My enjun shore enjoying that mod.

 

[royunion]

Keep in mind about the two rubber hoses that run from this FFM up under the intake, one supplies fuel to the IP and the other is a drain going to a tee valve in front of the engine. these rubber hose are down in the valley of the engine in all the heat. they get brittle over time and can cause you greif. I have my FFM relocated out of this area on one truck and on the other completely eliminated it and run a filter with a clear bowl up on the firewall that allowed me to route the rubber hose up over the intake for easy access!

Here is some photos..

View attachment 90783

View attachment 90784

A Van does not have that setup

 

[MrMarty51]

A Van does not have that setup

No FFM ?

 

[royunion]

Brand new FFM with the feed the beast mod from Leroy Diesel aint all that much money for what it does.
My enjun shore enjoying that mod.

A van does not have that setup

 

[dbrannon79]

Moving the FFM from it's factory location also has it's advantages, allows a much easier access to the oil pressure sending unit along with the ability to see down into the valley if a leak occurs from the IP. Just keep in mind if you decide to eliminate it, if you live in a cold climate, you might need the fuel heater! where I'm at I don't really need it. Don't have to worry too much about fuel gell in the winter, but fortunately where I placed the filter on my 95 up on the firewall, engine heat helps with fuel gell. at least I got to test that out a couple of years ago when Texas had it's "Great Freeze" and temps got down to 16 degrees. dousing the tank with winter additive my filter did gell up some, but still ran, and with the heat in the engine compartment it thawed where I could run the truck down the icy roads with no problems.

 

[dbrannon79]

A van does not have that setup

I'm curious, how is a van setup, I know they have a smaller space to cram all that in there. can you post a photo on how they are setup for us to see?

 

[royunion]

No FFM ?

No. A van has a fuel filter mount found under the driver's seat area under the van with a slip on filter that seals with female seals built into the new filter like ebay.com/itm/204136702960

 

[Will L.]

Remember guys- he has a van not pickup. Roy- it would really help if you ad the rig to your signature line and all modifications. Then you won’t get “lift the bed” or such suggestions. The vans don’t have the ffm on the intake like pickups. They have a center mounted turbo there and a completely different intake manifold. Same set up as hummer/hmmwv. The FFM in vans is on frame near drivers door.

To be clear- I wasn’t suggesting trying to re seal the ip. Thats a nightmare.

They call it the FFM (fuel filter manager) because besides filter its the heater (which you and I don’t need where we live) and WIF (water in fuel) sensor. the WIF triggers and that day you need to replace the filter. Originally the coating on the Delco filter would seperate 90% of the water up to 2 tablespoons over a 50 gallon volume. This was before they started putting methanol, ethanol, etc into all of our diesel. Now the alcohol in it absorbs water and keeps it in suspension allowing it to pass through the fuel filter. And many other brand filters made for this unit were proven to have ZERO water separation or absorption abilities. So most people add a real water separator like you see in Doug’s 2nd picture on the firewall.
Sux to have an additional cost but it’s far better than replacing injection parts and pistons. Last time I was in Orange County their pumps said 10% oxygenated fuel (which is alcohol) so you might consider adding one.

Another consideration is replacing the factory ffm all together. It has a nominal 5 micron rating ORIGINALLY but recent tests of the delco filter put it closer to 10 micron. Fass fuel filter water separator currently is the best for it at 99.96% !!
Their spin on filter for fuel is 10 micron nominal and run as polisher unit is good for 30,000 miles- but how our system does it should run more like 50,000 miles since we don’t recycle 100 gph through it non stop. There are plenty of other spin on filters that are 5 micron. Almost all the vans and trucks in fleets around here almost all went to this years ago with great success. The smaller and cheaper spinons are size of our regular oil filters and last about 15,000 miles. Being able to see the water and drain it easily is a game changer.

 

[royunion]

I'm curious, how is a van setup, I know they have a smaller space to cram all that in there. can you post a photo on how they are setup for us to see?

It is under the driver's seat area under the van. A pic of the filter is at ebay.com/itm/204136702960

It slip on a male tube, and is held up by a a twist ring lock.

The black part on the bottom is where the the water sensor is - they do not come with new filters. It has a screw stud up the center that the connector slips onto