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6.5 AMG Blocks that are on the market

Missy Good Wench

Missy Good Wench

Wild Blonde from Cloud Mt
Messages
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Location
Newberg Oregon
Many of you have tried in vain to buy an brand new AMG/GEP Block to build you dream engine with.

Well a few years ago there was a bunch of them that got out onto the market place and were sold to the general public.

The Navistar diamond logo is in the valley and the the other identifying feature is the newer style Julian date code.

Exactly how many got loose is an unknown, but there were a bunch of them.

Now for the bad news.

These blocks from what I have learned from the one I bought were REJECTS
Now dont get all butthurt just yet, it apears that the issue was an error in the machining of the mainline.

The one I bought had unfinished cylinders, no dowel pins, no soft plugs or oil galley plugs, but all the other machining had been done.

Upon starting assembly it became real obvious right quick that the main line was .002" under the low limit as speced in the GM service manual.

This is an easy fix at the machine shop. Simply setting the block up in an mainline honing machine and giving it a little bit of honing will take care of the issue.

The bore on the mainline should be 3.143" to 3.1433"
The block I got was at 3.140" and with this there is little to no main bearing clearance.

I have spoken with the folks at GEP and talked about the issue. They acknowledged that YESSSSSSSS a batch of blocks did get loose from Navistar and were sold on the open market through various sources such as Ebay etc.

Nobody seems to know (at least not admitting) exactly what the circumstances were that precipitated the release, but it was not authorized by AMG/GEP

My educated guess is that there was an error in the programming on the machines that do the mainline (CNC) and most probably a bunch of blocks got through and reached assembly and then the error was caught.

At this point the line was stopped and everything finished or not was purged and placed in a holding area pending further decision as to what to do.

Most probably the work required to hand finish these blocks was deamed too costly or ???? and or the blocks simply went out the back door to recover the costs and save the hastle of hand fitting ?????

No further info is available and those who know are not talkng.

Sooooo to sum it up, if you happen to stumble onto one of these blocks they can be a great find, just be aware of the issues and act accordingly.

The cylinders on some were finished and were ready for assembly, some had rough cut cylinders that were below 6.2 diameter.

Yu will need to buy all the dowel pins for the block, the galley plugs, soft plugs and head dowel sleaves. OH and dont forget the little 1/2 inch cup plug that goes down in the passage right under the rear main cap. (about 2 inches down inside) this one separates the oil out to the cooler and the return to the engine from the filter.

The block I got had cam bearings already installed, but we removed them prior to doing the boring so as to be able to clean and flush any and all crap from the block after we were done.

Just a heads up on what I have found.

One of the mods may want to sticky this one so it stays available readily.

Hope this is a help

Missy
 
Thanks

Did some more "GumShoe" work today and finally after some calling and chatting found a fellow who knew the story of these blocks.

He informed me that at any time during production that there is always a few blocks that are scrapped during the run.

The rejects are supposed to be damaged in such a way (Sledge hammer) so they can't be used, then recycled back through the foundry.

These blocks were part of a start up run and there were several (many) that failed in the mainline area due to either a CNC fault or some such item.

The issue was not a great enough fault to render them unusable so someone shuffled them out and onto the market.

The fellow I spoke with knew that there had been some "heads roll" over the incident but, would not comment beyond the fact that YESSSSS It Had Happened.

The fellow asked me about the Julian date code and told me the numbers that would have been involved. The block I have was definitely in that time frame.

So if you find a 6.5 block with Navistar Logo in the valley, a julian date in the June of 2002 range with bores that are unfinished, then be sure and check the mainline as well as everything else to be sure all is well otherwise.

Good luck to all and happy hunting.

Missy
 
I think your right BT, and the ones who did got caught I am told, as these were never supposed to see the light of day.

I do hope that the fooling around is over now.

Got the word a bit ago that mine is all fine now. Line bore ended up finishing at 3.1433" which is perfect for use with a set of standard bearings.

Missy
 
Oh I'm sure if there was "ANYTHING" not to spec, it IS or WILL BE.....Even if it was a "reject," it's still worth it's weight in gold, especially to someone like yourself;)......."This ain't your first Rodeo Hun!":agreed:
 
No core shift.

Blocks are checked for such stuff long before they ever put tools to the iron.

A company such as Navistar is not going to waste expensive machining time on a chunk of iron that is flawed from the gitgo.

The issue with this particular run of blocks was an error in the size of the main line bore.

The cost and time needed to repair this issue was deemed to be far more costly than scrapping.

The huge factory machine lines is simply not set up to allow a small number of blocks to be sent back through for a .002" error.

The only solution would be to do as I have and have a small shop (sub contractor) hand finish the issue.

I was told that the powers at be decided that they did not want to take the chance of these blocks getting loose, so they ordered them scrapped. Hmmmmmmmmm that was a good plan HUH ???

Any xray, sonic testing or othe QC testing on a blocks fitness would have been done prior to the blocks entering the machining line.

This does not mean that an occasional porosity or ??? may not pop up and get culled out during final inspection.

Missy
 
I have been involved with a couple builds with the blocks that come by BOAT and they worked fine.

The one thing that I am nervous about is, WHAT IS THE METALLURGY like in these China castings???

Other than that the fit and finish is great.

Missy
 
I got the ones i have analized for chemical composition.(metalurgy)
Anyone care to know what's in it?
I must have the report still floatin around somewhere
 
A direct comparison would be interesting for sure.

One of the conversations I had with the guys at GEP covered the Chinese cast blocks.

The fellow with GEP commented that "they" had looked at the China foundries and even tested some blocks from there. The issue were that QC was just not dependable enough.

Some blocks were great and others had issue that were not acceptable and the reliability of QC was just not good enough.

Some blocks had major core shift issues and then others would be perfect.

A company like AMG/GEP is not going to fool with a supplier that can't keep a high volume of good castings flowing into their production lines.

I am constantly asking myself the question, WHY HAS THE 6.5 become such an enigma as far as all these off shore blocks, strange stories and secrecy.

Still baffles me that AMG/GEP does not make the 6500 block available over the counter as a cash and carry part.

They could sell the hell out of these things and make a buttload of $$$$$$.

Sell them as a HIGH Performance part with a YOU BUY IT ITS YOURS SALES POLICY.

The story I got was that they can't be sure that people will build them right and that their reputation could be tarnished by builders not doing a quality job.

Heck they could run a production run and cast in an (SOLD AS BARE) in the valley or some such thing and that would be that.

These would sell like hotcakes. Yeah Buddy. We could finally be shed of all the damned junk GM castings that are still out there that many folks are struggling with.

And they can't understand why a batch of slightly out of spec blocks were set free into the private sector.

I would really like to hear from anyone who has built a Chinese block and learn how it is doing, how many miles, etc.

Missy
 
As I have mentioned before, there are several outfits that are marketing engines that they say they assemble "INHOUSE" as having OEM (GEP/AMG) blocks and new AMG heads and cranks.

If this is so, then what the hell is going on here? Even companies with a sterling reputation such as Peninisular diesel can't get bare blocks to build.


This has got to be the most peculiar story ever in automotive history.

Missy
 
I really don't think many of these clowns have enough Smarts together to know how to be in KaHOOOOTZ.

Cooperation and working together would allow them all to make $$$$$$$$$$ and to do the end user a service.

The way it is now, its a real CLSTRFK and the end user just gets screwed royally.

Not everyone has the background that many of us have to be able to sift through and separate the Fly poop from the pepper.

My last venture on DaHoooley was a nasty failure but, I understood from the gitgo that using the Cometic head gasket might not be wise. I took a gamble, and lost. OHHHH well.

Once DaHooooley is back up and flying I am going to set sail on the 85 Blazer K5 Project.

I have plenty of 6.2 stuff to throw together and make a good little NA engine.

Just need a good IP is all
 
Missy Good Wench said:
Still baffles me that AMG/GEP does not make the 6500 block available over the counter as a cash and carry part.

They could sell the hell out of these things and make a buttload of $$$$$$.

Sell them as a HIGH Performance part with a YOU BUY IT ITS YOURS SALES POLICY.
The story I got was that they can't be sure that people will build them right and that their reputation could be tarnished by builders not doing a quality job.

Heck they could run a production run and cast in an (SOLD AS BARE) in the valley or some such thing and that would be that.

These would sell like hotcakes. Yeah Buddy. We could finally be shed of all the damned junk GM castings that are still out there that many folks are struggling with.

And they can't understand why a batch of slightly out of spec blocks were set free into the private sector.


Missy
Click to expand...


Their Reputation is much more important to them than picking up a small segment of the private sector for their "Bottom Line"....it's just not worth their trouble....

After all, I'd say they got their customer base "Locked Up".......US Military is an aweful nice "customer" to have, I'm sure their price per Unit is more than fair (To say the least, we've all heard the stories of US Gov paying $300 for a roll of toilet paper), the check is always on time, and you can bet dollars to donuts there is no problem with the check bouncing.

Long story short is, they just don't need/want the "private sectors" business.......And I wouldn't be surprised if they can't, at the request of their "friends"
 
Missy Good Wench said:
As I have mentioned before, there are several outfits that are marketing engines that they say they assemble "INHOUSE" as having OEM (GEP/AMG) blocks and new AMG heads and cranks.

If this is so, then what the hell is going on here? Even companies with a sterling reputation such as Peninisular diesel can't get bare blocks to build.


This has got to be the most peculiar story ever in automotive history.

Missy
Click to expand...

Robyn, it was about a year ago when I got heck from The Page because I was trying to red-flag DSG as impostors for claiming their engines were built with brand-new AMG Blocks ... John told me to knock it off, so I finally did. But I didn't quit.

I went to DSG and asked to see one... they got all antsy and told me a hundred stories, but couldn't show me that it was an AMG and weren't happy when I pulled out my netbook, ran the numbers, and told them they were full of it.

Now their website says nothing at all about AMG, genuine or otherwise. Funny how the possibility of lawsuits get people's attention...
 
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