1995 C3500 hard starting

[Big Josh]

Demographics: tell us about your truck and your ambient conditions:

- year 1995____
- Truck model and class (ie: c2500) __3500_______
- Automatic or Standard _____4L80E_____
- Mileage: (indicate miles or km) _196,000________
- Replaced parts and mods (IP, PMD, chip/PCM, TM, injectors etc) Heath PMD plate on trans crossmember, #9 resistor, 3.5" downpipe, 4" straight exhaust, HO waterpump, 180 robertshaw thermosat, gm-8 turbo, fender snorkel removed___________
- Model: ‘S’ or ‘F’ engine, NA or Turbo, EGR? __non egr, turbo___________
- Ambient outside temp: (indicate *C or *F) ___90+_______
- What fuel are you using? (#1 Diesel, #2 Diesel, Bio, VO, WVO, etc) _____road diesel____
- What fuel additives are you using? _power service diesel kleen with slick diesel__________
- Where are you located? __Lawton Oklahoma___________

General maintenance: inspect and evaluate the condition of each. When were they last changed?
- Air filter _about 2800 miles ago________
- Fuel filter __same_______
- CDR Valve? __same_______
- Coolant – last flushed/replaced at __June 2009___________
- Oil – synthetic/regular, changed at changing this weekned rotella 15/40 every 3000___________
- Batteries – state of charge, (matched set) replaced at _duralast red tops matched_set__________
- Battery cables and grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened): _cleaned grounds _____________
- Glow Plugs - how many miles on them? they were installed 2 185,000_________ What type? not sure_____________
- Injectors - last changed at 185,000_______________


History: (Describe how the problem first appeared.)
- What were you doing when it happened? starting the truck______________
- How was the truck running fine before this problem appeared? ___great__________
- Has this problem ever happened before? it is a continuing problem during starting after the truck has sat for a couple hours_______________________
- Describe any related factors that might be part of the problem. ______________
- Have you checked for DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)? (Y.N) sometimes it would throw a 36 injector pulse long checked with my snap on scanner____ And? ________


Diagnostics:

1] Starting:
1a] Does the engine start? _yes________
1b] Does the engine crank over? _yes_______
1c] Are your batteries fully charged? __yes_______
1d] Have you removed, cleaned, and tightened all battery connections? _______yes_
1e] Does your Wait to Start light come on for a time? How long? _2-5 seconds________
1f] Does your glow plug light come on? _________ For how long? _________
1g] Do you see smoke from the exhaust while cranking? What color? _no but there is white smoke and the truck runs rough for a few seconds then it clears up_______

2] Fuel Issues (if not running):
2a] Can you hear your lift pump working? __its new I put it on in June__________
2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ? _____yes___4-6 psi @ idle on fuel press gauge_
2c] Loosen the inlet line from the IP – is fuel coming out (Lift Pump on)? ___________
2d] Loosen an injector line and crank the engine - does fuel come out? _________
2e] Do you hear a vacuum (hiss) when you remove the fuel cap? __________yes_

3] PMD / IP Issues
3a] Location of PMD (on pump, on intake, remote mounted) Heath remote mount on d/s of trans crossmember___________
3b] Condition of Extension harness (if used) Vendor or Homemade? _Heath diesel________
3c] Condition of grounds / ground wires to IP / PMD. Check Harness. ________Good_
3d] PMD Make: __Stanadyne_________
3e] PMD Age: _unknown____________

4] Stalling Issues
4a] Do you experience stalling only when hot? ___no_________
4b] Does it stall under particular circumstances? (ie hit bump, or on accel) _____no_
4c] Does pouring cool water over the IP seem to help with restarting? _________
4d] Is stalling momentary (engine recovers)? _________
4e] Does SES light come on when engine hiccups? _________
4f] Does cruise control quit working when engine hiccups? ___________
4g] Does re-starting seem to reset engine, restoring cruise and power? _________
4h] Changes to dash lights or instruments during stalling events? ___________

5] Running Issues
5a] On cold start, does upper rad hose get hard before engine warms up? _____not sure__
5b] Any bubbles or oil film in coolant overflow tank? ___no____
5c] Any white slime on oil surfaces (dipstick, CDR, oil Fill cap)? __no________
5d] Excessive white smoke from exhaust on cold start? _for several seconds no more than 10 seconds though________
5e] Excessive black smoke from exhaust under hard acceleration? __no________

6] Performance Issues
6a] Do you have gauges? _____yes boost, egt, trans temp______
6b] Maximum boost under load? _10-12___________
6c] Have you added a performance PCM (reflash) or Chip? _no_____________
6d] Have you changed exhaust / downpipe / crossover? Yes 3.5" downpipe, 4" straight past the rear tire_______________
6e] Wastegate – mechanical or vacuum? vacuum______________

7] Temperature-related Issues:
7a] Single or dual thermostats? __single__________
7b] Have you replaced them lately? Manufacturer of replacements? June 2009 Robert Shaw 180_______
7c] Have you pulled and cleaned Radiator and coolers lately? _June 2009___________
7d] Have you replaced the fan clutch? Manufacturer of replacement? _June 2009 SS Diesel HD fan clutch and Dmax fan_______
7e] (winter) Have you tested your antifreeze? Good to what temp? __-30________
7f] (winter) Are you using a winter grille cover? no___________

List and describe any other factors which are not addressed in this checklist. We can’t see, hear, smell, or touch your truck, so the more descriptive information you can give, the more likely it is that somebody can assist you.

I bought this truck in Dec 2008 with 193,000 miles on it. At 185,000 it had a new long block, heads, injectors, turbo, glow plugs, and injection pump over $7,000.00 of work I have the receipts. The truck was a back-up truck in a small fleet that pulled a 30ft trailer the owner used for his insulation business. It looks good and runs great plus it was only 4500.00! But recently it has been starting hard. It used to fire right up after the WTS light goes out even out in the cold (not to cold down here 40 miles from TX). Know I hold the pedal to the floor and it takes several seconds for it to start which is followed by white smoke then it clears up and runs like a scaulded dog. The first start after it sits over night takes the longest. Its nice and hot down here 95-100's. And the gow plugs seem to be cycling correctly I have replaced the glowplug relay, and the lift pump but still have the problem. Sometimes it will throw a DTC 36, I'll clear it with my scanner and it may not do it for a month. This is my 1st diesel and I love it, but I'm still learning so any help would be appreciated. This is an Awsome site with great folks that have a wealth of knowledge. Thanks in advance and sorry this is so long

 

[NVW]

You may want to pull the glows and check them, 2-5 seconds isn't a lot of glow time either. Make sure the connections to the glow plugs are tight.
For the code 36 try 2 stroke oil mixed in with the diesel at 100/1

Leo

 

[gmctd]

Load-test your batteries....both of 'em - then begin with the cables, checking for oxidation\corrosion, terminal integrity at each post, particular notice to the + crossover cable at both batteries, both-side grounds to the engine block, starter connection, etc

- then the glow plugs - should be G60\equiv - you'll need to disconnect the wire at each plug for a continuity test, tho continuity doesn't always mean that it's good - open always means that it's bad - best test is to pull the plug, test it with jumper cables, directly to the battery - should glow tip to body within 5secs - don't touch: that's over 1000*F - any that glows halfway is on the way to being bad - replace

 

[docdray]

just replaced my starter and was amazed how slow it had got. the new one really spins the engine at lower amps, my glows run 10 sec.

 

[NVW]

If the glow plugs are from ssdiesel they are probably failing, check them and replace with Bosch Duraterms or AC Delco 60g's

 

[Big Josh]

My batteries both load tested good. I did the battery mod with my cable ends and bolts. I haven't checked my glow plugs yet, but I will. If they are bad are the Duraterms good plugs? The previous owner had them installed with the new motor @ 185,000. I left the truck sit for 2 weeks while we went on vacation it started the same way no worse. So I don't think its a loss of prime issue. Could it be a timing problem possibly? I will check my glow plugs. Thanks for the help fellas. Again the forum and the people are far above any of the "other sights" Oh yeah my average glow time about 5 seconds morning temps around here in the middle 70's. And lately been 100+ by 2:30 pm when I get off work.

 

[buddy]

Could be timing related, but usually ends up being something simple like a battery or starter cable.

If you have that scanner and the correct program for this truck then you can look at the timing, a Top Dead Center Offset (TDCO) is the important value.

Try unplugging the Coolant Temp Sensor (CTS) aka Engine Coolant Temp (ECT) sensor, the one on the passenger side of the Thermostat housing, and if that doesnt affect it, jumper the sensor harness with a 300ohm resistor and see if that impacts the "cold" starting in 90* temps .

Also, check if you get fuel pressure from the lift pump with the IGN in the start position. In 95 I think with truck off you can put it in gear and then put to start and it wont crank but LP should come on. If not then you LP relay would be bad.

 

[MRB 6.5TD]

My batteries both load tested good. I did the battery mod with my cable ends and bolts. I haven't checked my glow plugs yet, but I will. If they are bad are the Duraterms good plugs? The previous owner had them installed with the new motor @ 185,000. I left the truck sit for 2 weeks while we went on vacation it started the same way no worse. So I don't think its a loss of prime issue. Could it be a timing problem possibly? I will check my glow plugs. Thanks for the help fellas. Again the forum and the people are far above any of the "other sights" Oh yeah my average glow time about 5 seconds morning temps around here in the middle 70's. And lately been 100+ by 2:30 pm when I get off work.

you didn't mentino the grounds. these engines are driven 100% by computer, and each system needs the ground to work including the one from your PMD harness (FSD) to the IP. Very important.

Remove them all, wire brush, and re-install. There are a few in the back of the engine that run down past downpipe (straps) that are notorous for burnign up and rotting off, causing stalls, and possibly no-starts.

Also, remove, inspect, and re-install every fuse, under hood, and in-cab. Look for green coorision.

Make sure your PMD extension harness is intact, and good and of a known source. Dont' say you bought it from Edam, and properly grounded.

These are all yearly mainteneance items for these engines, so even if it doesn't fix your issue now, (which it may), it will prevent further issues down the road for sure.

Good Luck and you've found the right place to get that beast purring again.

 

[turbovanman]

Code 36 can be caused by the pump being out of time, I would do as told, check glow plugs and check your pump timing and TDC offset.
You'll need a scanner to check it, it should be around -1.5-.1.94 or close. Timing should be the same between commanded and actual or very close, Timeset activated, it should be 3.5-4.0 deg.

 

[gmctd]

DTC 36 Closure Time Long also results from low battery voltage due to batteries, cables, grounding, harness connectors, etc - makes the FS slow, unresponsive - also causes slow cranking, long starting in severe cases - dragging starter motor can cause low voltage condition in START

 

[turbovanman]

DTC 36 Closure Time Long also results from low battery voltage due to batteries, cables, grounding, harness connectors, etc - makes the FS slow, unresponsive - also causes slow cranking, long starting in severe cases - dragging starter motor can cause low voltage condition in START

Good info, :thumbsup:

 

[Big Josh]

Okay guys I pulled all of my glow plugs which were AC Delco 60g's and tested them with an ohm meter and with the battery cables. They glowed cherry red and all were about 1200F checked with my temp gun. I checked my timing offset and it was .-50. I did a re-learn and set the tdc offset to -1.94. It fires up smooth every time so far so maybe that was the culprit. So thanks for all the help guys I hope this fixes it.