1993 6.5 auto starter problem

[nealpellecchia]

chinese rebuild, guy wont take the whole thing back. seems like i got low voltage. but installed a good wire to the s term the last time i had it out and whenever it won't start i just grab that lead and touch the + bat term and it cranks and starts easily. but, some times it doesn't work and you have to giggle the wire to make the solenoid engage and dis-engage very quickly to vibrate the circuit to find a good path and then it starts. but, sometimes this won't work. also when out once the guy who rebuilt the solenoid watched it run on the bench very slow and roughly like it had a jambing drive or a bad ground in the motor. also the contact washer, copper color not the silver color like the gm ones, was very thin after only one years use. he put in a new one that he "just happened to have on the bench". good for 4 days. then the guy who sold me the unit put a new cap on the solenoid, or it came out of a box, same. this guy had put on a new solenoid within the first year... took it off for me but it didn't last. I remember him hand operating the bendix mechanism looking at it with concern.

I think maybe the washer is inferior, or the drive gets stuck causing big current flow which burns the washer and cap, or intermittant bad ground in the starter motor...if you hit it with a hammer with the key in start you can get it to start. I think hitting it with a hammer can vibrate the solenoid as well as the motor to make it work not just the motor. or bad worn bushing near the gear end that he says is ok cause it never grinds. HELP i'm tired of getting in and out 60% of the time. and still too cheap to get a better one like others do and i read still have the problem. original never did this.

 

[3500GMC]

Cut your losses and throw the pos in the scrap. Go rock auto shopping. AC reman at the least.

 

[Will L.]

If you are not going to buy a remanned AC Delco, or go get a Powermaster, your options are super limited.

Pull it apart yourself, and learn to rebuild it. The problem with this theory is this:
I know how to rebuild starters, I just dont have the ability to rewind a bad winding. Or the ability to surface cut the rotor contact area to true it. Those I have to send out to a good shop. The brushes can be bought in bulk. The bronze bushing material can be bought and swapped easily. In the end I can rebuild one to good condition for less than $500. In the end, not worth my time. About 6 years back I threw on a lifetime autozone starter and have to replace it about yearly. I used to have a spare around, but donated it to a guy in a bad spot.

Throw that one you have on the shelf for parts. Buy a junkyard one. When it dies rip the two apart and see if you get lucky enough to make a good one of the two.

I get the grief of the starters. Guess what just went out in my Hummer. It rained pretty good all Friday, so Saturday my boys and I hit some mud. At Jack in the box on the way home with no restart guess who was not enthused. The undercarriage is packed in 12" of mud. I couldn't see the oil pan, let alone a starter. Crossed my fingers and hit the key about 20 times and got lucky.

This was my 14 year old's turn that got us started...

 

[ak diesel driver]

what you are describing is the solenoid going out. Don't by the chinese selenoids that are available for $30. I got one from a starter rebuild outfit that cost $60 and it did the trick

 

[WarWagon]

chinese rebuild... HELP i'm tired of getting in and out 60% of the time. and still too cheap to get a better one like others do and i read still have the problem. original never did this.

:mad2: Stop pounding your head against a brick wall and expecting different results. At least it stops HURTING!!!

Let us know when any one of the above factors change: Cheap, hate changing Chinese lifetime warranty krap all the time, reading about solutions and not solving your problem.

ak diesel driver is dead on as to the exact problem, but, the rest of the 'repair' to that starter was done with just as unreliable parts and labor. I had 2 in a row with bad solenoids that I was able to return. I then went with a made in USA Powermaster that I broke from hard starting bad injectors. They warrantied it and I replaced the injectors. I have not had to remove the Powermaster starter since except to overhaul the engine. I have a trouble free Mexico rebuild in the other ride that has treated me well, but, not my 1st choice anymore. Towing and downtime adds up...

 

[reddtekk]

Hey folks I'm going to reiterate something that I posted in a previous thread.

MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT THE BRACKET ON THE BACK OF THE STARTER IS INSTALLED!!!!
Consequences:
* Bent/broken starter bolts
* Cracks around the starter bolt holes in the block
* Stripped bendix gear
* Chewed up ring gear
* Maybe more....:yikes:

My starter sounded awful (as if it needed to be shimmed) until my engine kicked back (timing was a bit too advanced). Then I got that bone-chilling grinding sound of what was left of the bendix gear machining away the teeth of my ring gear. I know that kickback can do awful things but at least if the starter bracket was installed I wouldn't have had ALL of the above happen (my starter bolts didn't break, but did bend a bit).

My starter had the back cover to the starter motor on backwards, preventing the stud from lining up with the brace, which someone omitted when the starter was re-installed. It's pretty easy to swap around. Put the starter in a vise with the solenoid terminals facing up. Clamp the vise on the aluminum housing that the two long mounting bolts go through, not the round motor stator housing. MAKE SURE THAT YOU USE AN IMPACT DRIVER (a great investment - the kind you hit with a hammer, not the air operated type!) to unscrew the two Phillips screws that hold the brushes to the back cover so that you don't strip the heads. There should be O-rings under the heads of the screws. Once you have those screws out take out the long bolts that hold the starter motor together. It takes a little patience to get the cover off because the rear bearing for the motor is also housed in it and it's a fairly snug fit. Try not to pull the whole motor out of the gear case (unless you want to inspect your front bearing) - and make sure that the brush housing is sliding out of the rear cap. If it is being stubborn, put the Phillips screws in about 2 turns and lightly tap them with a hammer to get the brush holder loosened up, then take them back out. Now is a good time to inspect your brushes and commutator, as well as making sure that your rear bearing is still intact. If you want to go further in disassembly, go ahead - they're really pretty easy to get apart. Don't grease bronze oil-impregnated bushings though - use oil if needed. Grease plugs the pores and prevents oil from reaching the surface. Make sure that you get the cap on the right way and gently tap it some of the way down. Use a pick to line up the brush holder holes and start the screws in them. Tap the rear cap home and tighten all of the screws and bolts.

The bracket is easy to make out of angle iron. I happened to have a short-block on an engine stand which made measurements easy. I also bend a tab back to rest against the boss for the freezeout plug to add some support.

It doesn't look like it does much and it is a little bit of a pain to get installed but absolutely necessary.

Happy trails.:driving:

 

[nealpellecchia]

Hey folks I'm going to reiterate something that I posted in a previous thread.

MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT THE BRACKET ON THE BACK OF THE STARTER IS INSTALLED!!!!
Consequences:
* Bent/broken starter bolts
* Cracks around the starter bolt holes in the block
* Stripped bendix gear
* Chewed up ring gear
* Maybe more....:yikes:

My starter sounded awful (as if it needed to be shimmed) until my engine kicked back (timing was a bit too advanced). Then I got that bone-chilling grinding sound of what was left of the bendix gear machining away the teeth of my ring gear. I know that kickback can do awful things but at least if the starter bracket was installed I wouldn't have had ALL of the above happen (my starter bolts didn't break, but did bend a bit).

My starter had the back cover to the starter motor on backwards, preventing the stud from lining up with the brace, which someone omitted when the starter was re-installed. It's pretty easy to swap around. Put the starter in a vise with the solenoid terminals facing up. Clamp the vise on the aluminum housing that the two long mounting bolts go through, not the round motor stator housing. MAKE SURE THAT YOU USE AN IMPACT DRIVER (a great investment - the kind you hit with a hammer, not the air operated type!) to unscrew the two Phillips screws that hold the brushes to the back cover so that you don't strip the heads. There should be O-rings under the heads of the screws. Once you have those screws out take out the long bolts that hold the starter motor together. It takes a little patience to get the cover off because the rear bearing for the motor is also housed in it and it's a fairly snug fit. Try not to pull the whole motor out of the gear case (unless you want to inspect your front bearing) - and make sure that the brush housing is sliding out of the rear cap. If it is being stubborn, put the Phillips screws in about 2 turns and lightly tap them with a hammer to get the brush holder loosened up, then take them back out. Now is a good time to inspect your brushes and commutator, as well as making sure that your rear bearing is still intact. If you want to go further in disassembly, go ahead - they're really pretty easy to get apart. Don't grease bronze oil-impregnated bushings though - use oil if needed. Grease plugs the pores and prevents oil from reaching the surface. Make sure that you get the cap on the right way and gently tap it some of the way down. Use a pick to line up the brush holder holes and start the screws in them. Tap the rear cap home and tighten all of the screws and bolts.

The bracket is easy to make out of angle iron. I happened to have a short-block on an engine stand which made measurements easy. I also bend a tab back to rest against the boss for the freezeout plug to add some support.

It doesn't look like it does much and it is a little bit of a pain to get installed but absolutely necessary.

Happy trails.:driving:

mine is on.

 

[nealpellecchia]

But dig this...my jumper lead to the s terminal finally broke off so i thought i finally had to bring it down again. nope i took an old ratchet handle and stuck it in the fender well touching the + lead to the M terminal and it cranks! with no s terminal voltage. the trick is that the motor terminal supplies voltage to the solenoid windings grounding through the hold in circuit as the motor is energized. presto like magic. maybe the voltage goes in backwards but it works! I also only buy marked down meat at the supermarket these days too. still looking for the rebuild kit for the solenoid too.

 

[JMJNet]

If you rebuild, you need to take the starter out.

Why don't you take it out and open it up and see what is wrong.

It may be something easy like loose screw or something.

Also check the cables and make sure the connector to starter is good, may be it is just a corroded cable.

 

[reddtekk]

X2

Another thing....

If you bypass the solenoid like that you might make matters worse. The solenoid engages the bendix gear with the ring gear before applying power to the starter motor. You're driving the bendix gear out with inertia and might beat it up. Just an observation from my recent starter dissection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nealpellecchia]

If you rebuild, you need to take the starter out.

Why don't you take it out and open it up and see what is wrong.

It may be something easy like loose screw or something.

Also check the cables and make sure the connector to starter is good, may be it is just a corroded cable.

loose screws? you mean like the ones in my head?? We did all that twice but I think when I put the juice to the M terminal I get a very big spark with no motor movement. but then do it some more and you hear it spin. then it seems to want to start. when it clicks in start with a test light to the M term. there is nothing.

 

[nealpellecchia]

:mad2: Stop pounding your head against a brick wall and expecting different results. At least it stops HURTING!!!

Let us know when any one of the above factors change: Cheap, hate changing Chinese lifetime warranty krap all the time, reading about solutions and not solving your problem.

ak diesel driver is dead on as to the exact problem, but, the rest of the 'repair' to that starter was done with just as unreliable parts and labor. I had 2 in a row with bad solenoids that I was able to return. I then went with a made in USA Powermaster that I broke from hard starting bad injectors. They warrantied it and I replaced the injectors. I have not had to remove the Powermaster starter since except to overhaul the engine. I have a trouble free Mexico rebuild in the other ride that has treated me well, but, not my 1st choice anymore. Towing and downtime adds up...

Hey, I eat chinese food every day fella! No juice to the M terminal when it clicks. but sometimes when I put juice to the M terminal I get a big spark and no turning of the starter motor. Two Problems? one caused the other??

 

[nealpellecchia]

X2

Another thing....

If you bypass the solenoid like that you might make matters worse. The solenoid engages the bendix gear with the ring gear before applying power to the starter motor. You're driving the bendix gear out with inertia and might beat it up. Just an observation from my recent starter dissection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very true, and on day 2 this magic ended I must of got lucky and hit all three terminals at once. Possible the way the wires are on mine. Also I wanted to splice in a Ford solenoid to the M terminal but guys said it would get the juice to quickly to the motor before the drive clicked into the flywheel. Makes sense but doesn't
it take the same amount of time for the ford plunger to move as the gm one attached to the starter drive?

 

[nealpellecchia]

X2

Another thing....

If you bypass the solenoid like that you might make matters worse. The solenoid engages the bendix gear with the ring gear before applying power to the starter motor. You're driving the bendix gear out with inertia and might beat it up. Just an observation from my recent starter dissection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very true, and on day 2 this magic ended I must of got lucky and hit all three terminals at once. Possible the way the wires are on mine. Also I wanted to splice in a Ford solenoid to the M terminal but guys said it would get the juice to quickly to the motor before the drive clicked into the flywheel. Makes sense but doesn't
it take the same amount of time for the ford plunger to move as the gm one attached to the starter drive?

 

[reddtekk]

Plunger is attach to a lever internal to the starter that physically shifts the gear in before making contact electrically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nealpellecchia]

Plunger is attach to a lever internal to the starter that physically shifts the gear in before making contact electrically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Right, but it makes contact to the M terminal at the same time as the lever completes it's travel. wouldn't that be at the same amount of time that the Ford solenoid plunger, with no lever, completed it's travel to make electrical contact? They both seem to click instantaneously.

 

[bison]

There's a Starter rebuild tread in the stickys

 

[reddtekk]

There's a Starter rebuild tread in the stickys

x2...

I'd also check the parts numbers sticky for the solenoid. Something about possibly scrapping a starter and ring gear rather than replacing a solenoid (which you MIGHT be able to change without even removing the starter!!!) just doesn't sit well with me.

If the two solenoids were in open air with nothing attached to them then yes, you'd expect the contact delay time to be similar. But the solenoid on your starter is driving a bendix gear into the teeth of the ring gear. Let's say that something doesn't quite line up...then the motor starts to turn...:yikes:

The solenoid comes off by only removing its two bolts when working on the starter off the vehicle. I'm not sure if you'll have enough freedom of motion to get it out without removing the starter. You have to disengage the plunger from the lever. Again, I --think-- I recall being able to pop it off without removing the pivot to the lever.

I personally like to take a proactive stance - fix it now to avoid compounding the problem.

Just my $0.02...