Tips on buying a used engine (inspired by the custom builds)

[chi2]

I've been mesmerized and motivated by the engine building masters on this forum and the DP, most recently by the extremely clean looking yellow power plant built by Ratman/Rich (there are so many others too, TD, the Flatland Fireball..the list is long).

Well, I am ready to take the first step into (the never ending money pit of :crazy: ) building a custom 6.5L TD engine. A new Chinese turbo will be part of the build, but all other aspects are in the works. I am in no rush, but I will need to use my truck while I work on a second power plant.

I am trying to keep the costs as low as possible, so I have been shopping around for a used engine. But I'm not quite sure this is the best way to start a build, and I've got a couple questions for the custom builders out there:

Did you start with a new short block or long block, or did you buy a used engine?

If an engine is out of the vehicle (and I am not able to turn it over, run it, etc) what are the main things to inspect?

(The references/FAQs/and posts that deal with buying a used vehicle are written mostly for complete trucks; however, if there is a post about buying used engines please direct me to it).

I do actually have a lead on an engine (unknown year): reported 16K miles, ran great, includes IP and everything, 1,600.00. It is not a turbo- it is n/a. The seller is a stranger, and sounds a little shaky - I have not visually inspected the engine yet.

Thanks in advance.

Jon

 

[Slim Shady]

I've been mesmerized and motivated by the engine building masters on this forum and the DP, most recently by the extremely clean looking yellow power plant built by Ratman/Rich (there are so many others too, TD, the Flatland Fireball..the list is long).

Well, I am ready to take the first step into (the never ending money pit of :crazy: ) building a custom 6.5L TD engine. A new Chinese turbo will be part of the build, but all other aspects are in the works. I am in no rush, but I will need to use my truck while I work on a second power plant.

I am trying to keep the costs as low as possible, so I have been shopping around for a used engine. But I'm not quite sure this is the best way to start a build, and I've got a couple questions for the custom builders out there:

Did you start with a new short block or long block, or did you buy a used engine?

If an engine is out of the vehicle (and I am not able to turn it over, run it, etc) what are the main things to inspect?

(The references/FAQs/and posts that deal with buying a used vehicle are written mostly for complete trucks; however, if there is a post about buying used engines please direct me to it).

I do actually have a lead on an engine (unknown year): reported 16K miles, ran great, includes IP and everything, 1,600.00. It is not a turbo- it is n/a. The seller is a stranger, and sounds a little shaky - I have not visually inspected the engine yet.

Thanks in advance.

Jon

Welcome,and to answer your question, there are plus and minuses to both a new block and a used block,. New blocks with the upgrades to the main webs and the casting mix are pretty good bets to survive the normal mods. There are no guarantees, A good used block that has a lot of miles on it that did not crack at the webs is a good candidate for a rebuild. The block has been stressed and normalized and after a good check should be a worthy candidate for a long term survivor.

I used a 6.2 block bored over .040 to make a new power plant for my cracked 6.5 block. So there are no hard and fast, one is better than the other statement, military blocks can at times make good candidates for a rebuild but they are best purchased while in a vehicle. you have a better chance of getting a good block to work with.

This is just my 2 cents worth opinion.

 

[Primer]

I suggest calling around to engine shops in your area asking what they have in stock.

If you find a good shop that knows what they're doing, then you should have no trouble building a good, long lasting engine! Make sure they're willing to work with you to build what you want, not what they have time for!

 

[Ratman]

Jon, -just like Slim said, -there really isn't any solid "this is what you need to do" answer to that one.

In my opinion (in addition to what Slim said) is that inspection (and method of inspection) is KEY to finding yourself a good block.

Finding a good block to start with is often the very first (and biggest) hurdle that must be overcome. Good blocks are out there, -but finding them, -and physically inspecting them is often difficult unless you can drive there and arrange with the seller that you want to get close and personal with it to check it out.

Main webs seem to be the most common areas of concern, -on any of them. The 506 blocks have sometimes been known to crack between the head bolt hole(s) in the cylinder wall on #'s 7 and 8. There really doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason, -and even though the 599's are supposed to be better than a 506, -I've seen more than a few cracked 599's while in my search.

The best preliminary inspection process (6.5 mafia approved), is to clean the entire underside of the block out with brake cleaner and wipe it clean (with the crank and guts removed) Then using a flashlight and a careful eye, warm the webs using a propane torch, -carefully looking for any residual jet-black oil to surface out of any cracks. Many have said this method often reveals things that a magnaflux test will not. Granted, magnafluxing accurately is somewhat of an art, -in other words, a guy does need to know what he's looking for, -and where to look (most don't).

Once you have found a candidate block, -check the obvious things first (no spun main bearings, no deeply scored cylinder walls, etc) If it looks ok, then proceed to do the bottom inspection.

In a nutshell, my quest to find a block went something like this:

1) Find a core motor on carpart dot com, or on craigslist, or at the wrecking yard

2) Arrange with the seller letting them know you NEED to inspect it
Either gamble and take it home (with a money back guarantee in writing), -or do it onsite (not fun or very accurate).

3) Check obvious things first, like the bores, decks, and the mainline for spun bearings.

4) Thoroughly clean entire bottom end squeaky-clean and check for cracks using the propane torch method.

5) If there aren't any cracks found, take it to your favorite machinist and tell him you want to make ABSOLUTELY sure that there are no cracks. Offer to pay extra for a thorough inspection.

6) If they don't find anything, have them proceed with the machine work.

The last thing, -and this is my hard-headed opinion, but if the crank has more than 200k on it, -and/or if the balancers look "iffy" at all, -throw the crank in the scrap barrel and plan on buying a new one (for $500-ish, you can have a brand spankin new Scat steel crank).

If you're on a tight budget, -then you could of coarse wing it and roll the dice. Many cranks make it well past 400k, -others don't.

Finding a block is without a doubt one of the biggest challenges in building one of these suckers.

You should also seriously consider doing what Turbine Doc and Bison did. The aftermarket blocks look great, -and considering how difficult it can be to turn up a good core these days, -you can't help but consider it an option when you can't find what you need.

And I ain't gonna lie folks. For the record, as Tim and many of you already know, I used my original 599 that came out of the truck that had two small cracks in the outer bolt holes on #2 and #3. After blowing up the perfectly good 506 with the shoprag, I searched relentlessly for a block around here, -and didn't turn anything up that was in any better shape than my old 599. I dug the 599 out of the corner down at work, and ran with it. That is the main reason the bottom is studded. I know it's a gamble, but what isn't. I have to admit, the wall thickness on the 506 was very thin in comparison to the 599. We shall see how long this one stays together.

So far, 1000 miles of hard flogging, and no bad noises.

Hey, at least the paint looks good!

 

[Turbine Doc]

FWIW I know where there is a good running when removed engine in the North East I don't know what he wants for it, I stripped it from parts for my China AMG clone build, but he still has heads block etc, PM me if interested in contact info, he swapped to Cummins for his.

 

[bison]

I would buy a used longblock cause you'll need the crank,cam , rods ,gears,lifters and timingcover and what ever else as well.if the block checks out,use it,if not a new china block like TD or myself did is most likely cheaper than hunting around for and tearing apart god knows how many others,before you find a good one in the long run.actually IMO if you considder the cost of reconditioning a used block like decking,boring and linehoning the mains,you prob stack up more than a new block would be.

 

[MBBOB]

Do the math. Add the time money and risk associated with used weak parts. The GEP longblock starts adding up at $5,750...... sad but true. Just my opinion!

 

[bison]

Do the math. Add the time money and risk associated with used weak parts. The GEP longblock starts adding up at $5,750...... sad but true. Just my opinion!

hmm used weak parts, they are proven and when not cracked or bend and within specs they'r just as good as new.

so what about al the accessories that have to be bolted back on,IP ,waterpump and so on. these are used too.or you plan to renew everything? may as well buy new truck.

 

[3bals]

I did the math. $8-$10,000 for a new engine and new major componates. $50,000+ for a new truck. :rolleyes5:

 

[Ratman]

Well, I would agree that nothing would be better than nutting-up and buying all new parts.

You'd still come out in great shape considering what it would cost to replace our trucks.

However, often times (for the majority of us) the money simply isn't available to buy all new stuff, -let alone take on a truck payment.

For the guys using their trucks everyday to make money, -where a guy's well being depends on a rig that is absolutely as good as it can possibly be, -then (assuming the rig is paying for itself) -all new componentry would probably be the wisest choice. On the other hand, -as many have proven, re-using at least some of the used parts on a rebuild has not proven to be a bad move.

That's where judgment calls need to be made on whether the odds are in your favor or not when re-using certain components. That's where other people's previous experiences can come in real handy. Still, -with anything (be it new, or used) there's still no guarantee you won't have a problem.

How does that saying go for that game called mousetrap?
You roll your dice and move your mice?

 

[bison]

Well, I would agree that nothing would be better than nutting-up and buying all new parts.

You'd still come out in great shape considering what it would cost to replace our trucks.

However, often times (for the majority of us) the money simply isn't available to buy all new stuff, -let alone take on a truck payment.

For the guys using their trucks everyday to make money, -where a guy's well being depends on a rig that is absolutely as good as it can possibly be, -then (assuming the rig is paying for itself) -all new componentry would probably be the wisest choice. On the other hand, -as many have proven, re-using at least some of the used parts on a rebuild has not proven to be a bad move.

That's where judgment calls need to be made on whether the odds are in your favor or not when re-using certain components. That's where other people's previous experiences can come in real handy. Still, -with anything (be it new, or used) there's still no guarantee you won't have a problem.

How does that saying go for that game called mousetrap?
You roll your dice and move your mice?

you word things a hell of a lot better than i ever will :cheers2:

 

[Slim Shady]

I have to say that I am a big proponent of used parts as far as major component assembly's such as blocks, and engine blocks especially.

In Detroit we used to season the engine blocks before they were machined, now I know many of you younger folks won't know what that is HEHEHEHH, :cryin:, So gather round young uns and listen up to a story about when quality mattered, back in the olden days, yep thats right when quality mattered and common sense prevailed.

Engine block castings used to sit in a yard where they rusted and weathered for over a year before the casting was machined for a NEW engine with a rusted old weathered block. This was done to crank shaft castings as well. Now the reasoning behind this was two fold the casting would get hot and cold here in Michigan where the casting would expand and contract so flaws would show up in the casting and the rust relieved surface tension from the casting process, that is a seasoned block. YEP called seasoning here in the motor city, all the GOOD blocks were seasoned at least a year before they were used.

Now I know a scary story like that before a new engine rebuild is not nice but those are the facts. So the next time someone offers you a brandy new block ask them if it has been seasoned???? Expect them to think you are crazy. So used blocks have been stressed and seasoned: and a up to spec used block is in my opinion much more reliable than a brand new block. Heck I would even sleeve an old block and use it before buying a new block unless the new block was or has shown to be superior to the old block. NOW flame on about what I have said and yes 28 years of working on vehicles has made me cynical, I have rebuilt more than most seeing that when you are working on old crap that can't be had any more you need to FIX it rather than replace it.

OK I am done, whewwww:svengo:

 

[3bals]

I agree. New isn’t always better than used. I’ve learned from experience also. As I too am seasoned with 3 years to go to the big “R”.

The most frustrating part is that it seems nowadays, the products are pushed out faster and faster, without many regards to quality. It’s hurry up so we can get onto the next and make more money. This seems to be true not only in the products, but also in services. It seems that “a job well done” just isn’t taught to the younger work force any more. Now I know that there are plenty of young individuals that still do have pride in their work, in today’s industry it’s just not allowed.

I just wanted a newer styled block and was willing to take the chance from Peninsular. I was concerned about the remans and used, as many seemed to coming back from the military and who knows for sure how they were handled. Just my thoughts.

I too have experienced, first hand, the theory of seasoned and unseasoned castings. We used to have a foundry here in town and I had some custom parts made. One I used right away and the other I left out beside the garage for a year. The one I used only lasted a few months and the seasoned part lasted for several years.

As you can see by my profession, I’m not in the big bucks and I really use my truck a lot. It’s taken me months for this project to research the parts I want, where to get them and to gather the $$. I’ve been lucky enough to have a spare vehicle to get to work and have a buddy with a truck to help me out when I need to haul stuff, but I really miss my own.

So basically, it boils down to, do you want to spend the money, do you have the time, and do you want to take the chance on new, used or a combination. I’m thinking this what the original poster was looking for opinions on? And this is the way I handled it with the amount of experience, knowledge, time and money I had to work with.

Nuff said too?

Oh and by major components, I meant, IP, Turbo, IC, water pump, injectors, dampner/pullies and starter. And I know I’m a new guy here, but I’m not a new guy in life. I really enjoy reading the experiences of those of you that have been around these engines alot longer than me. I've only been driving a 6.5 since 94.

 

[Ratman]

Expect them to think you are crazy.

Slim, -it's too late, -they already think that.

Everything you say about seasoned blocks is true. Heck, -even the castings we used to have poured for the pumps we used to make were better when seasoned. They would cut better, -and did not have to be sent out for annealing.

We'd almost always have to send out green castings for annealing, -otherwise we'd stress-relieve the parts during machining, -causing them to warp like crazy when you'd take them out of the machine. The seasoned parts never did that, -nor did we ever have to get them annealed.

Seasoned beats "green" anyday.

 

[Slim Shady]

The thing I like about this place is we do have experienced people and as such we have different opinions and can view those without being judged. WE as experianced people need to let the younger guys know or we are the bad guys because we withheld information.

I understand your point and it is valid, more of a personal choice. I guess I have been a sheeny all my life and have just become comfortable with used or re-manufactured, Now if I could get new and improved for the same money then I would opt for the new and improved but keep my old to use just in case. And just for the record EVERYBODY is new here, so welcome aboard, we look forward to your input and experience, 3bals.

You may want to look at the turbo we are going to be putting out if you are so inclined. just a thought. Like I said glad to have you aboard, with the old farts. I am speaking for myself only on the old farts thing:biggrin5:

 

[3bals]

Thanks for the welcome. I hope I won't let you down.

Here is a pic of my new turbo.

 

[Matt Bachand]

As with anything else in life, NOTHING beats years of hands on experience. NOTHING. So I want to say thank you for sharing your years of wisdom with us, as it would take us 10, 20, or even 30 years to learn what you guys are saying. Usually 'learn' means $$ so thank you for saving us potential loss's/wastes of money.

To the people who aren't in the automotive trades, and to the younger folk here, pay attention evertime someone speaks especially with the 'old fart' comments. These are golden secrets passing by you. Absorb it.

 

[Slim Shady]

Slim, -it's too late, -they already think that.

Dang and I figured on the internet nobody would ever find out I was crazy, did my internet address give away the hospital name???? :rofl:

At least I am in good company, here. Anyone else want to come clean about being institutionalized:arf::lol:

 

[3bals]

At least I am in good company, here. Anyone else want to come clean about being institutionalized:arf::lol:[/QUOTE]

No, but I did work in a women's prison for 4 years. I quit that job to run into burning buildings.

 

[Slim Shady]

At least I am in good company, here. Anyone else want to come clean about being institutionalized:arf::lol:

No, but I did work in a women's prison for 4 years. I quit that job to run into burning buildings.[/QUOTE] from 3bals

Your just missing the structure (meals and activities) and hiding in the guise of the firefighter, nobody runs back into a building that is burning that is sane. SO come clean.The truth will set you free, get some freedom!!!!:smilewinkgrin:

On a more somber note We the public appreciate the service.