This is weird as H E double hockey sticks...

[great white]

Truck died while driving today.

Of course, I'm on a long trip again. It's just the love/hate this truck and I have.it loves to hate on me at the worst possible times.

It fishbited once and my antennae went up. Kicked a couple more times and I dove for the next off ramp. Died completely halfway down. Fiddled around a bit with some obvious things, no start. Swapped the spare pmd in, no start. Cracked #1 injector line off. No fuel. Starter is cranking slow, but its been getting slower over the week so I just figured it was on the way out.

Getting despondent, I hit the starter again and the truck starts. I make immediate plans to get somewhere where I can do more intense work on it. Truck sees the glimmer of hope in my eye and decides it won't allow me to have hope. It stalls out again. This time it is resolute: it will not start. Batteries are nearly drained now too.

So, I have it flatbedded to my moms house an hour away. There goes 150 bucks.

Getting dark now, so not a lot of time.

Crack off #1 again. No fuel.
Fuses - check
Pmd - check
Lift pump pressure - check, 10 psi (good ol' raptor 100)
Fuel at air bleed - check
Fuel at T drain -check
ESO solenoid opening -check
Dtc's - none
Return fuel - check
Battery cables -check
Grounds -check
Disconnect OS - no change
Disconnect CPS - no change
Light fog of WD 40 at intake - not even a kick.

Now I'm really confused. Its got fuel to the IP, its not getting to the injectors. I meter the FSO and get continuity. At least the windings are intact.I start fretting about another $1500 ds4.......

Getting baffled, I hook up the jumper cables and give it a shot on the remote start so I can watch #1 injector line again. It runs the glow cycle and then: nothing. No crank. WTF? Does its second start cycle. Nothing. Double WTF? On the third I grab a wrench and whack the starter (was trying to get it to turn, but it felt good to whack the damned truck with something heavy!). I now get a slow crank like a bad starter.

Now I'm really confused.

I jump in the truck and use the ign key. No start, not even a click. Everything else is working, just no starter. Wife turns the key and i whack the starter which gets us a slow crank. Outside again, remote start and nothing. Second time whack the starter and slow turns.

So I grab a screwdriver and cross the terminals. Nothing. Not even a spark. I whack it with a wrench while holding the screwdriver and it gives a spark and graunch (lost contact as I pulled the screwdriver out). Try the screwdriver again without the whack and nothing.

A bad starter seems obvious here, but stall the truck? I can't think of any possible way for it to cause a stall and no start condition.

Light fading, I do an internet search and reveal a few old and cryptic posts. One from Missy GW about using a ford solenoid to offload the high amperage draw from the small guage starter signal wire and another about some gent who had his truck stall dead out from the same wire to the solenoid that went dead open.

Scratching my head over this one. Never heard of a starter stalling a running engine. Unless its making some weird fault to ground issue or perhaps a loss of some sort of signal. I just can't get my head wrapped around a starter causing a stall issue once the truck is actually running. No start from low rpm turnover or high amp draw, sure. But stall once running? That's a new one on me if that's what's going on....

Too dark to carry on with it now. I'll pull the starter out in the morning.

Not sure what else to look at from this point...maybe ignition switch. Doesn't explain slow crank though.

Just to sprinkle a little extra joy on this "S" sandwich, the driver side wheel bearing also appears to be making a loud snapping noise. I replaced the passenger side last week before the trip as i found play in it. I wanted to do the driver side too, but the parts store didnt have two of the good ones and i wasnt going to put a cheap one in. Figured I at least would get a couple weeks out of the drivers side. That would give me time to order in the good one. Nope, not even 5 days later its doggin me. Not even going to cut me some slack there. Going to have to replace that on the road too now.

Gawd, I hate this truck. One nightmare after another. If i cheaped out on parts all the time I could at least understand, but it gets the best of everything (translation: $$$$$$)

Can't wait until I get a bit more "financially repaired" so I can dump it off a cliff somewhere....

 

[Will L.]

What part of the country are you in on this trip, maybe 1 of us can help. I would want an inductive amp meter up on the battery cable next to the battery, the read again down by the starter.
Separate and individually test the batteries in case you are loosing a cell in one.

I am a starter killer, yes a bad starter will draw power from enough to cause a to low voltage supply (brown out) all the way to I have melted the side posts out of the battery and had the cable just fall away. It sounds like intermittent power loss to the pmd to me.

 

[ak diesel driver]

my vote is for the ign switch

 

[vstech]

I have had a bad starter kill a truck...

What part of the country are you in on this trip, maybe 1 of us can help. I would want an inductive amp meter up on the battery cable next to the battery, the read again down by the starter.
Separate and individually test the batteries in case you are loosing a cell in one.

I am a starter killer, yes a bad starter will draw power from enough to cause a to low voltage supply (brown out) all the way to I have melted the side posts out of the battery and had the cable just fall away. It sounds like intermittent power loss to the pmd to me.

 

[schiker]

I think you had a logical test. I would think jumping the terminals on the starter solenoid would run it and test it but might want to isolate it or use an actual remote starter jumper switch so you get good contact (and with good battery voltage). IF starter runs with a remote switch I would think that points to ignition switch or possible bad battery cable(s). If it doesn't spin normal the starter is bad (or wires) but doesn't clear the ignition switch.

I have had a bad connection to starter wire kill a gasser truck but starter wasn't bad just a momentary direct short that browned out the electrical and killed it quick. So I guess a bad starter could brown out the system.

 

[jrsavoie]

X2 Load test the batteries - separately & load test the positive battery cable at the starter. If the batteries are no good, change them first. You aren't going to get anywhere with bad batteries and any further trouble shooting will be all but impossible.

To check the PMD. check my thread on the 1994 K3500. There should be several links there to checking and diagnosing the PMD. Turned out a I had one bad pin in the harness that the PMD extension cable plugs into. I never found it til I made a test lead. I ended up having one extension cable that worked with that pin and made connection.

I would also say that the ignition switch is a good bet. I have replaced the switch on all of my vehicles except the 1994 K3500. I would only use a GM or AC Delco ignition switch

What part of the country are you in on this trip, maybe 1 of us can help. I would want an inductive amp meter up on the battery cable next to the battery, the read again down by the starter.
Separate and individually test the batteries in case you are loosing a cell in one.

I am a starter killer, yes a bad starter will draw power from enough to cause a to low voltage supply (brown out) all the way to I have melted the side posts out of the battery and had the cable just fall away. It sounds like intermittent power loss to the pmd to me.

 

[great white]

Bats load test good.

Cables were metered. Bat voltage at starter lug and close enough to 0 ohms to be insignificant (my meter is lab grade, goes very low).

PMD was metered (I use the Standyne documentation so I'm a bit more in depth than most on that). No issues. Spare was also slaved in. No change. Plugged both into the OEM harness connection vice extension.Nada. PMD is pointless now anyways since it's gone form a stall condition to a no start condition.

To expand on that further, It's a no crank condition. The ignition switch pin that pits and burns isn't even in the mix when I use the remote start, that pretty much rules it out. Heck, the key is in the OFF position and it's a no crank condition, that rules it all out. Then there's shorting direct from the known 12V lead to pin B and nothing. Even when I do get it to spark a bit, nothing. Starter is toast.

I've done the stalling dance before.....this is something different.

Could be as simple as high load draw clicking the ESO closed on voltage drop or knocking out the PMD signal or even the PCM below volts. Wouldn't explain the stall, but sure would explain no fuel.

Pulling the starter out now. Will try 12V direct before dropping in the reman one I picked up this AM.

Might not be the stall condition, but 99% sure it's the no crank condition.....

 

[4thesporty1]

I'm curious to see what you find with the starter. I wonder is the bendix is now stuck in the out position. I can see how that COULD cause a stall, maybe, well slim chance anyway. Especially if the remote start somehow engaged it during driving, then subsequently killed it.

Kind of grasping at straws here though.

 

[uniquediesel]

Bad Injection pump harness. Giggle the harness wires as it it's going to the fuel solenoid on the back of the pump. Look inside the connector for the PMD that would connect on the side of the pump, look at the inside of the pins and see if it's possible any of those aren't making contact. This kind of stuff won't set a code.

Maybe the culprit is related to the remote start stuff? Anytime aftermarket stuff like that is involved it's a sure thing for a failure.

 

[WarWagon]

Bats load test good.

Cables were metered. Bat voltage at starter lug and close enough to 0 ohms to be insignificant (my meter is lab grade, goes very low).

PMD was metered (I use the Standyne documentation so I'm a bit more in depth than most on that). No issues. Spare was also slaved in. No change. Plugged both into the OEM harness connection vice extension.Nada. PMD is pointless now anyways since it's gone form a stall condition to a no start condition.

To expand on that further, It's a no crank condition. The ignition switch pin that pits and burns isn't even in the mix when I use the remote start, that pretty much rules it out. Heck, the key is in the OFF position and it's a no crank condition, that rules it all out. Then there's shorting direct from the known 12V lead to pin B and nothing. Even when I do get it to spark a bit, nothing. Starter is toast.

I've done the stalling dance before.....this is something different.

Could be as simple as high load draw clicking the ESO closed on voltage drop or knocking out the PMD signal or even the PCM below volts. Wouldn't explain the stall, but sure would explain no fuel.

Pulling the starter out now. Will try 12V direct before dropping in the reman one I picked up this AM.

Might not be the stall condition, but 99% sure it's the no crank condition.....

A second pair of eyes that you are asking of the forum.

You are measuring a huge battery cable for ohms and that doesn't tell you anything. This cable could be bad and will still kill the insignificant 9v or 1.5v voltmeter battery without issues. When you dump 1000A through the cable from the 2 huge 12v lead acid batteries to starter then any bad connections show up as the cable gets hot, weak lead connections melt, etc. (Cools down and it works for low load again.) You want to measure the voltage drop across the cable to see if it has high resistance under full load. So looking at voltage across the loaded cable anything around or over 2V should get a closer look. Off the top of my head it is like 9V minimum at the starter solenoid small pull in wire and 11V at the starter battery cable connection to crank.

It acts like a bad connection/cable/switch is getting hot and killing everything.

IMO trying to start the engine with other problems heaved the weak starter. (Or finished off a weak battery cable.) Thus possible you have 2 separate problems.

As above ignition switches are very real possibility - the weirder and more numerous the issues the more likely it is the switch! Standard GM issue on 2000 era stuff that uses the spring tension of the copper contact bar to drop down and connect. The hotter the contact gets the more tension it looses and the higher resistance the switch gets. Here are some pics and failure notes on a toasted GM ign switch.

With a scanner what does the ECM voltage read?

I know you have seen this, but, in depth if you wind up at the harnesses under the intake:
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/sh...ge-DS-6-5-DB2-5-7L-info-online-from-Stanadyne!

AAA - it's ~$125 a year for:
100 miles x 3 tows
200 miles x 1 tow
5 miles x 1 tow

Saves one from trying too hard to get it moving again and burning things up or ignoring leaks to 'just get there' that burn up a power steering pump from a blown box seal and other fun stuff making the repair bigger. Just turn the radio on and wait for the hook. Fix it in a safe place by your tools. Makes owning an old vehicle much more pleasant.

 

[great white]

Starter fixed it.

 

[btfarm]

Starter fixed it.

:thumbsup: BJ. Glad to hear it.

 

[Will L.]

sweet

 

[4thesporty1]

what caused it to fishbite and die?

 

[great white]

what caused it to fishbite and die?

Internal fault in solenoid draining power to ground. That's why no sparky sparky when crossing terminals, voltage was already there. Voltage drop and PCM said "shut 'er down" or probably a bit of PMD voltage drop causing cut out also.

Once it was a hard drain to ground (dead on the off ramp), it was all over but the cryin' and it was dead where it sat....

 

[great white]

Internal fault in solenoid draining power to ground. That's why no sparky sparky when crossing terminals, voltage was already there. Voltage drop and PCM said "shut 'er down" or probably a bit of PMD voltage drop causing cut out also.

Once it was a hard drain to ground (dead on the off ramp), it was all over but the cryin' and it was dead where it sat....

(Missed the edit window)

Once the starter was rapped with the wrench, it must have jarred the solenoid loose for a crank cycle. Worn starter brushes/windings made for high current draw and stuck internal fault on again.

Likely a drain through the pull in coil vice the hold coil as the pull coil goes through the starter windings to ground and the hold goes straight to ground. Windings made it enough of a resistance to appear as a load whereas the hold coil would appear as a dead short.

Don't think it could be the main contacts fused on as that would likely make for a constant crank scenario.

I'm saying combination of an end of life starter motor and an end of life solenoid feeding off each others weaknesses making for one weird fault chasing day.

Meh, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[ak diesel driver]

I would have thought something would have smoked

 

[great white]

I would have thought something would have smoked

Most likely the motor brushes were slow roasted and never got to a smoke point but toasted all the same.

More toasty, more resistance, more amp draw until the PCM/PMC called enough with the shenanigans and just checked out.

Can't be bothered to take the motor apart, it goes back for core in the morning and we can carry on with our trip/vaca.

Lovely wheel bearing change too. In moms driveway in the rain and the top front bolt (hardest one) was installed by some previous hack in near stripped condition. Ill never understand not spending 40 bucks (what I paid at the dealer) to put good bolts back in. Probably some flat rate jockey.....

Managed to get the other three out with heat and lube, but this one I had to buy a right angle drill and 1/2 cobalt bit to drill the head off then beat the whole thing out.

That was a treat......not.

I swear, this truck, its gone first chance I get. Unfortunately, that will likely be a few years. Should be able to get a good deal on a Cummins/dodge or superduty power stroke by then.

Wife is also talking about selling the trailer and getting rid of the truck. I could put my 300M special back on the road and just enjoy a nice driving reliable vehicle again. Need a beater for winter though......

 

[ak diesel driver]

pretty soon you'll have everything changed someone else touched LOL

 

[GM Guy]

the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. got a buddy with a 7.3L powerstroke powered super duty, and while he doesnt hate it, it isnt his favorite, nor is it as reliable as some make it out to be, it has left him dead a few times.

The early common rail cummins' I would rank higher, and only if they have been cared for, and the fuel filter changed every other oil change, and only with the 6 speed manual. then you have the fun of death wobble.

I would stick with the 6.5L, its the devil you know, and you are nearing the point of having everything replaced!