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Stud, Girdle, or Nothing?

P

Primer

The Captain
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Location
Weyburn, SK
The title says it all.

I have a 2001 block in the shop being machined as we speak. I have a shop building the short block for me and I would like to know your opinions about the bottom end.

The current build is as follows:
2001 Navistar 6.5L
New Peninsular 18:1 Pistons
New Scat 9000 crankshaft
Reconditioned rods
etc

I'm leaning towards studs, but any suggestions would be great!
Jay
 
Since your already sinking a chunk of change into it, a few more bucks for the studs and a girdle would be a wise investment. Another thing you may want to consider is a Fluidampr Harmonic Balancer. Let us know how it all turns out. Should be a good runner with that compression and little more boost.
 
It is a chunk of change, which is why I brought it up. If I can find a way to get/make a girdle I'll go that way. It's definitely getting studs, though.

I'm thinkin about a Fluidampr. SCAT doesn't like them, and I can't see why.

And hey, it's only $500, not like I don't have many times that into this already...
 
I have not personally used a fluidampr, but i think it is the best out there. Class 8 semis running cat cummins, detroit, etc. they all have a similar harmonic balancer. it is actually ball bearings swimming in oil, but that is similar to a ring floating in silicone, whivh is the way he fluidampr is made.

In my opinion, the closer it is to a semi in design, the better.

I would also stud and girdle.
 
Well in one way i think you guys are very lucky, as for us loveing the US cars & suv`s bla..bla.. We over the Pond haven`t got that luck to go just down the Road & have a fix.. but thats life, Okay then we learn a lot more...maybe...
 
Primer said:
It is a chunk of change, which is why I brought it up. If I can find a way to get/make a girdle I'll go that way. It's definitely getting studs, though.

I'm thinkin about a Fluidampr. SCAT doesn't like them, and I can't see why.

And hey, it's only $500, not like I don't have many times that into this already...
Click to expand...

I am not sure why Scat doesn't like them, but I have read where you have to balance the rotating assembly with the original GM damper and THEN switch to the Fluidampr during assembly.

Regards,
 
Question regarding balancing:
Should I get my crank balanced? The engine shop doesn't figure it will have much effect due to the relatively low RPM of this engine.
 
When and if I ever get to do a build, I will balance the entire rotating assembly, including making sure the pistons and rods weigh exactly the same. Good to know about using the factory balancer for the balancing (that just sounds funny) and then switch to fluidamper's unit. Thanks Goldsburg.
 
If you do get it balanced have it set up for your cruising rpm - Not something like 7k!
Rods and pistons (with rings) and wrist pins weighing the same is awsome - Been there, loved it. Balance point and length of the rods too... A lot of work, but worth it. Ya need somewhere with a bunch of parts that they'll let you go through though. Last one I did was a VW. There was a VW parts place in Memphis and we weighed and found the balance point of EVERY rod and piston set they had - and marked everything. The result was an almost electric motor VW. I wish I never sold it...... Get your hands on a REALLY GOOD lab grade scale.
 
My former B-I-L has his own machine shop and all the balancing goodies. We still get along fairly decent, so I might still get the family discount LOL,
 
$$$ please

Primer

Could you please post the total $$$ it costs you to complete this engine.

I am very interested to see what it costs to build a 6.5 the "right" way, and it appears you are doing it the "right" way. I assume your father, brother, wife does not own the machine shop you are using and you are paying market prices?

The next time someone asks " should I buy a new long block or rebuild mine?" we have some data to compare.

Thanks
 
I will post it, but will likely have to remove the names of the machinists and stuff.

I have a spreadsheet on the go, so I'll post all I can when I can.
 
Goldsburg said:
I am not sure why Scat doesn't like them, but I have read where you have to balance the rotating assembly with the original GM damper and THEN switch to the Fluidampr during assembly.

Regards,
Click to expand...

That is what I had to do to mine, balanced with stock and then put on the FD even put it on the scat crank though they don't like it, my builder has been running them for years and sewars by them. Girdles I've seen IMO waste of money, I splayed my new engine and went with ARP studs, with <15 psi boost I don't know if that was wasted $$$ or not but concept is a solid one,

But also remember the Heath land speed racer didn't have splays or girdles, or 18:1, and running 153 mph and calculated 500 crank Hp it's surviving without, Ian's 303 rwhp dyno engine also running with no splays or girdles.

I still haven't installed the new engine, working 4 days a week away from home leaves little time on week ends for truck stuff Fri/Sat at home & Sun back to Ga for work on Mon. New job has kept me from here much as well long hours leave few hours for me to weigh in here often
 
TD, The 500 calculated and 303 dyno run #'s are impressive at the least, but Ians run didn't last miles and miles, neither did Bills. What I'm getting at (hopefully with no disrespect) is that they didn't need to run girdles or splayed for such a short period of time. But for Joe the Plumber (couldn't help it) who pulls a heavy load, like a skid steer for example, day in and day out, wouldn't the added insurance be worth the extra time and expense?

Side note, is Bill gonna run his truck on a dyno?
 
Turbine Doc said:
That is what I had to do to mine, balanced with stock and then put on the FD even put it on the scat crank though they don't like it, my builder has been running them for years and sewars by them. Girdles I've seen IMO waste of money, I splayed my new engine and went with ARP studs, with <15 psi boost I don't know if that was wasted $$$ or not but concept is a solid one,

But also remember the Heath land speed racer didn't have splays or girdles, or 18:1, and running 153 mph and calculated 500 crank Hp it's surviving without, Ian's 303 rwhp dyno engine also running with no splays or girdles.

I still haven't installed the new engine, working 4 days a week away from home leaves little time on week ends for truck stuff Fri/Sat at home & Sun back to Ga for work on Mon. New job has kept me from here much as well long hours leave few hours for me to weigh in here often
Click to expand...

Bill doesn't run girdles but he did cement the bottom of the block in the water passages to gain some regidity. According to the article in Maxx power mag (I think thats the mag)
 
sshewins said:
TD, The 500 calculated and 303 dyno run #'s are impressive at the least, but Ians run didn't last miles and miles, neither did Bills. What I'm getting at (hopefully with no disrespect) is that they didn't need to run girdles or splayed for such a short period of time. But for Joe the Plumber (couldn't help it) who pulls a heavy load, like a skid steer for example, day in and day out, wouldn't the added insurance be worth the extra time and expense?

Side note, is Bill gonna run his truck on a dyno?
Click to expand...

If you talk to them they do have high CR , & higher than stock HP engines with miles on em towing and non towing.

Many of their Joe Plumber customers arrive 1st time with 200K+ engines, shucks I got a lot of high Hp miles on my "Watch out, you have a squirter block" can't survive at that Hp towing up to 18K that inside is wholly stock, is it worth it, there is some merit, as I did it to mine based on what guys on Page said had to be done.

I'm rethinking it now that I probably could have done a straight up rebuild, I doubt anyone has done an imperical study of early fails, how many died because of overheat, oil coolers, low boost, unmonitored EGT, stopped up soot traps, choked exhausts etc, or just plain running overloaded without preparing engines for heavier work than GM intended. A lot of Dmax and other lessons lerned from the 6.2/6.5, I'll surmise a stock build fed and cared for properly will serve 99% of us out here, push the envelope to 300 Hp, or tow big 18K type loads then you'll have to do more.

Splays-girdles-lower CR are good but maybe overkill, we know that works, multiple trucks have done it with success, and you are right Ian's and Bill's trucks don't have much road/towing time at these levels yet, but look at this anybody tried to run a splayed one at 150+ mph either, Heath boys do have many 200+rwhp miles in high CR form trucks out there, mine being one of them knock on wood it dead yet.

I did splays and scat crank as I was thinking of 20+ boost so you need some extra squish room, need to lower CR and build strength for higher psi forces in the cylinder working the bottom end, A team turbo does at 15 psi what 20+ boost does with no backpressure,.

I'm thinking based on what I know now, a stock rebuild, HP-4 tune, FTB, exhaust, ho inj, FSD relocate, oil cooler lines that won't pop off, clean rad & ho waterpump, & A team turbo is all one ever needs to have strong & durable truck.
 
I've decided for my build I'll be going with only studs. I'm going to spend the money budgeted for a girdle on a FD.

I thought about stock vs lowered CR and decided that price would be a factor in it. To do a lower CR engine only cost me $200.00 extra. For that price I decided to take a risk and see how it works in my climate.

My truck doesn't do much pulling but when it does it pulls HARD(I had a 27,000 pound double disk behind it this spring :eek:). This is mostly to have fun and to see what these old dinosaurs can do.

I'd rather have my "modified" truck than a boring newer one. I can either put 8 or 9 grand into this truck, or pay 30,000-40,000 for a Duramax that: 1) I have no idea about; 2) have to go into debt for. I'm going on the old rule that "If it doesn't make you money, you can't afford to pay interest on it."
 
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