Problem with starting

[Bezzer]

Hi again fellows! I'm the one that has the 1996 Safari Trek motorhome with the 6.5TD with
the pop at turbo and tail pipe and the problem was the glow plugs and injectors that I changed....and it solved that problem. I have put about 250 miles on the motorhome and it runs great.

Now I have a starting problem. The batteries stay at 12.80 V with my tender. What is happening after the glow plug light goes out ... and I go to start the engine right away....and it wants to start but it fails to start. Then I wait about 4 seconds and try to start it again.... and it finally starts. (Starter turns over just fine).
After the engine starts- it goes right to idle. The engine does not race up and fall back to idle...like a normal start up?
**************************************************
I have found this that tells about bleeding the system:
"How To Bleed Injectors On A 6.5 Turbo Diesel?
6.5TD Post Addict.As far a bleeding goes all you need to do is crank the engine over for cycles of 15 seconds followed by a starter cool down period of 1 minute,it will self bleed. I like to crack 1 injector line loose while bleeding the high pressure side,it seems to speed things up a bit but is not mandatory."
***************************************************
I have bled the system any way and found no air and no leaks. And it runs just fine without any problems.

What do you think is going on here with the start up?

 

[Bezzer]

Still trying to get some help with my new engine starting problem!

Here is the tests I did on the "engine start up & testing voltages" (see picture A). They all showed good on voltage.

I also included the Wal-Mart load testing results of the two batteries.
(see Wal-Mart testing results picture B and C)

What do you think of the findings of the testing?

I also have a button you can press that will give me a 12 volt boost if I have low starting batteries. (This boost comes from the 12 volt House Batteries)

When I install these batteries back into the motorhome...I'm going to try that button on the first start up just to see if that helps. This will be the first time I'm thinking of trying this button in 28 years. I'll let you know how the button works.

Thanks to anyone who has an idea!

 

[Will L.]

Do you have a clear line on the ip return hose?
If not, begin with that. 1/4” diameter about 5” long hose comes out the front of the ip.
Have someone else start it while you watch for any bubbles flowing.
Having one small trapped bubble is ok but not any flowing through.

Knowing you have fuel pressure is my next step. A fuel pressure gauge tapped at the ip inlet using a metal adapter fitting- then sensor screws into that which feeds to the fuel gauge in the dash. 8-14 psi is desired. So long as you stay above 5 it should not have any negative starting effects.

I can’t remember what type of ip you have. Getting that into your signature line will help. Db2, db4, or ds4? Post pics if not sure.

Any codes?

 

[dbrannon79]

Which glow plugs did you install? was it the AC Delco 60G ? these require slightly longer run time than the factory ones. when I installed mine I had a starting issue almost the same way yours is doing. I could manually jump the glow plug solenoid and hold it on for roughly 8 seconds and the truck would start right up with no issues.

on a cold start as soon as you turn the key on and see the glow plug light on the dash, count 1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000.... till the light turns off and post the results. easier to time it with a stop watch LOL. but you might try experimenting a bit with a cold start if the light goes out in like 4-5 seconds. try this... be ready to jump the solenoid, turn the key on and let the PCM run the solenoid for the 4-5 seconds, then immediately after it goes off jump it on and hold it for another 4-5 seconds and try starting. see if that helps.

for me in the end I re-programmed my PCM to keep the glow plugs on slightly longer which has worked fine. you might not have that option, re-programming things like this gets into some grey territory with the smog people depending on your local and state laws.

there is another option that might also work. this would require the glow plug solenoid to be discoed from talking to the PCM but if your like me and want things to just work not having another button to push and hold before starting, Amazon sells a time delay relay that is programmable.

on my 93 truck which came factory with a poor glow plug system to begin with, I used this time delay relay to activate the solenoid for 8 seconds any time the key is turned on. it has not failed me yet. Once programmed to your liking, just tuck it away under the dash somewhere. this one did not come with a insulating cover to prevent the pcb from touching or shorting out on unwanted things, I have seen others on the jungle site that do.

Amazon.com

 

[dbrannon79]

Here, I found the one with the insulating cover.

Amazon.com

iirc this is how I wired it in the photo, the signal is positive from the ignition switch. you will have to set the mode to turn on and hold for the time set. this relay will do both "turn on and stay on" when it received signal or "stay on" for the time when signal is lost. once set you shouldn't need to mess with it again. I had set mine to the 8 seconds time to turn on when signal received with I used it on my 95 truck before I programmed the PCM, then for months it sat in my tool box until I used it on my 93. when I connected it up I expected to have to set it up again but no, it kept its setting and I didn't have to touch it.

 

[Will L.]

Man, making me remember more reasons to hate the ds4
On db2 rigs there is a water temp sensor you can just replace with a different one or add a resistor inline and that forces longer glow times.

Other than that- the relay Leroy sells if ya don’t want to cycle the key..

The 60G doesn’t get as hot as quickly. Hence added glow time for some folks. But it is self regulating meaning it won’t overheat and break inside the chamber.

 

[dbrannon79]

the 93 I have is a db2 rig but I couldn't get the glow plugs to work at all on their own plus couldn't figure out what the issue was ether so I ended up converting the wiring to use a solenoid made for the ds4 setup, took the yellow wire that normally runs to the PCM and ran it to this timer relay. the truck did have the override button in the cab but I wanted them to work on the key LOL. just lazy and used to how my 95 works HAHA

 

[JayTheCPA]

The batteries stay at 12.80 V with my tender.

Is the voltage 12.8 when the glow plugs are supposedly 'On'? If so, this seems like they are actually offline and I'd expect ~8 - 10v when the glow plugs are active and healthy.

After the engine starts- it goes right to idle. The engine does not race up and fall back to idle...like a normal start up?

Do not recall the DS4 6.5 doing a "race up and fall back to idle" behavior. My other computer controlled diesels from the same era do not do this either. They start and go straight to idle. The rev-up on start is more of a computer controlled gasser thing.

 

[Bezzer]

Will L.- I do have a clear line on the ip return hose....there are no bubbles with the engine running. After stopping there is one bubble at the top of clear hose.
Ran engine for 15 minutes - watching this clear hose - and no bubbles appeared.
Shut off engine. I watched the fuel line and one bubble appeared from the front of the hose. Not from the injection pump. (See picture of while engine running and picture when engine shut off. Notice both pictures have a dark shadow in a small section of each hose due to that black hose next to clear hose.)
This is a temporary hook up which is not leaking but the store didn't have the proper clamps which I have now changed.

Fuel pressure is good.

 

[Bezzer]

Will L.: I do have a clear line on the ip return hose....there are no bubbles with the engine running. After stopping there is one bubble at the top of clear hose.
Ran engine for 15 minutes - watching this clear hose - and no bubbles appeared.
Shut off engine. I watched the fuel line and one bubble appeared from the front of the hose. Not from the injection pump. (See picture of while engine running and picture when engine shut off. Notice both pictures have a dark shadow in a small section of each hose due to that black hose next to clear hose.)
This is a temporary hook up which is not leaking but the store didn't have the proper clamps which I have now changed. Pictures included
**********************************************************************************
dbrannon79: I installed the 60G glow plugs that you guys recommended. You had a lot of other good ideas...but it sounds a little too challenging for me at 82!
At some point - I still will try your 4-5 seconds solenoid jump.
*********************************************************************************
JayTheCPA: No...the glow plugs voltage are 12.8 when the glow plugs are off. I loose 1 volt when the glow plugs are on. When I go to start the engine the voltage is 10.5 volts.
************************************************************************
The last thing I just tried was using the code reader again and it went crazy and listed 37 codes which I knew couldn't be right...called the company several times and they suggested that we do a "Computer Re-set" on the motorhome engine...which he had me look on the internet for directions for my unit ...to remove the negative battery cable, turn on the headlight switch for 10 minutes, then turn off the headlight switch and reconnected the battery cable....then the engine started right up. Code reader showed "No Codes".

This morning (at 7-26-24) I went down to see if the engine started just as fast....had to try it twice within 18 seconds...and it fired up and ran fine. Guess I'll have to except the 60G glow plugs that take a little extra on a cold start after sitting over night. Starts fast when the engine is up to temperature.

Next I'll try dbrannon79's solenoid jump.
Once again "Thanks" to Everybody for all your help!

 

[Bezzer]

Will L.- To answer the question you had on 7-23 -- My IP is a DB2. It was replaced under warranty and now has 23,350 miles on the new pump. I believe the fuel pressure is correct at 12-14psi....as I have no problem starting when engine temperature is up to normal. The problem is the 60G glow plugs that takes more time when initially starting the engine for the day - am or pm.

You've mentioned about DB2 rigs there is a water temp sensor you can replace with a different one or add a resister in line and forces longer glow times. Can you give tell me more about this? The water temp sensor sounds interesting but please remember this is a "cold engine" I'm trying to start!

dbrannon79- Out of the two suggestions....The 4-5 seconds seems to work the best. It just gives me a little less time starting time. Not over excited with this but I'll have to be satisfied with this for now.

 

[dbrannon79]

Will L.- To answer the question you had on 7-23 -- My IP is a DB2. It was replaced under warranty and now has 23,350 miles on the new pump. I believe the fuel pressure is correct at 12-14psi....as I have no problem starting when engine temperature is up to normal. The problem is the 60G glow plugs that takes more time when initially starting the engine for the day - am or pm.

You've mentioned about DB2 rigs there is a water temp sensor you can replace with a different one or add a resister in line and forces longer glow times. Can you give tell me more about this? The water temp sensor sounds interesting but please remember this is a "cold engine" I'm trying to start!

dbrannon79- Out of the two suggestions....The 4-5 seconds seems to work the best. It just gives me a little less time starting time. Not over excited with this but I'll have to be satisfied with this for now.

So your adding 4-5 seconds on top of how long the truck give you when key on? that's about the same for me when I did the 60g's

Will knows which temp sensor it is and where it's located at. I will be watching this to learn about my 93. maybe I can return it back to it's factory style system. I did read about the resistor trick once or twice, iirc it involves adding one inline or across to ground (CRS syndrome again) forcing the sensor to send a lower reading to the truck making it think it's colder than it really is. there are two sensors on the engine. one for the gauge and one for the PCM / glow plug system.

 

[Will L.]

Couple things. The sensor is the two wire unit in the passenger side head at the rear.
(Sid track: This also happens to be the hottest spot in the cooling system and as such is a dumb spot for the sensor. The crossover is where it should be and the rear head is where the panic button gauge should be.)

Unless you have a very modified db2 for high performance- you are pushing too much fuel pressure to it. 8 psi is the maximum a normal db2 should ever get.
When you go around 5psi and up it is forcing the timing to advance.

It would REALLY HELP if you filled out your signature line with rig details and modifications.

 

[jrsavoie]

I keep hearing that the 60G glow plugs require extended glow time.

I used them in a lot of different vehicles and never experienced that.

I actually never noticed any difference.

 

[Bezzer]

• 
  

 

[Bezzer]

This is a quote from July 10 above but I wasn't successful adding it as a quote-
"Hi again fellows! I'm the one that has the 1996 Safari Trek motorhome with the 6.5TD with
the pop at turbo and tail pipe and the problem was the glow plugs and injectors that I changed....and it solved that problem. I have put about 250 miles on the motorhome and it runs great."

I've tried to add that signature line or after my question or answer to the side several times but it never appears.
1996 Safari Trek 6.5TD diesel -little over 80K miles since new

 

[royunion]

I have been driving a 97 similar setup for 12 years.

Don't know how old your batteries are or their type - flooded, agm,, marine deep cycle or a combination agm / marine flooded mod, BUT...

you wrote

"loose 1 volt when the glow plugs are on. When I go to start the engine the voltage is 10.5 volts."

I can tell you, if I see that - I pray.

Mine won't start easily from cold if voltage is below 11.5

If the engine does not crank 200 rpm minimum it won't even inject. So it won't then start.

You need to do a load test on the batteries to see how many cranking amps the batteries can provide and whether they need a good charge or replacement.

FIRST I am assuming you have a DS4 because GM did not make a mechincal IP 6.5 TD after 1993. So like Will L said over 8 psi is too much for a DB2. But 8 PSI is only "OK" for a DS4.

I keep 15 psi regulated at my DS4. You do not say what kind of lift pump is on your setup.

But I once repaired a Hartridge bench test machine that tests the IP after rebuild, and the spec is for TEST 5 psi + or - 1% but running recommended is 15 to 18 psi. I had to electronically repair the IP control module - which is an abbreviated ecm - as both the 5 and 12 volt regulators were blown because the guy just let the harness sit in fuel oil in the test stand drain pan and it shorted it. Still no go - no inject, and I told him it had to now be a bad crank sensor because there were no crank pulses arriving to the board. He did not belive me and said he just replaced it. I said, yeah, you mean when you had all the oil in the harness and connectors. Grumbling claiming how expensive they were from Stanadyne for the stand, when replacing it then it injected immediately. Crank speed is not an issue there because the test stand can control the rpm.

When starting, the IP should have fuel but at key on the lift pump is better to push 15 to 18 at it than 5.

Also especially if your batteries are weak on reserve capacity cold cranking amps, those glow plugs won't get as hot as if more amps are available. Then you have also lost cranking amps from the glow plug draw, so cranking amps are slower even if it is above inject threshold.

Of course the wild card no one can answer is your fuel quality. ARCO R99 lights off really fast, while other bio diesel blends require more cranking slightly.

I run dual 200 amp alternators and when it starts I can see the draw that hit the batteries by how many volts and amps are being pushed by the alternators immediately after starting. It matters

I had the problem you describe until I bought new batteries. They are agm, and I opened them (a break in that voids the warranty yes) and flooded them with fresh battery acid full. That alone boosted NEW batteries by 200 CCA.

I have not replaced a PMD FOR 8 years until corrosion caused the extension cable to loose connection causing a no start condition and yes a run down of the batteries.

I carry 6.5 spare parts including a full pmd relocation kit. I also carry a small generator and 200 amp start/charger.

I put the generator on the batteries to charge them "fast" and "hard" in start mode and replaced the cable which took about four hours because it is a van, and you can tell when an AGM battery holds 12.9 to 13.2 volts it is really well charged.

Turning the key, it dropped to 11.9 volts then started immediately

It is critical you have enough CCA from a good battery, to heat the glow plugs, run a good strong lift pump, and have Cold Cranking Amps in reserve to crank the engine fast enough to start, assuming you have quality high cetane fuel.

I would start with a battery test like using a FOXWELL BT-100 to see the condition of the batteries, then be sure there is a good hard charge on them because over time starting draws them down unless you have strong dual alternators to replace that starting draw down charge. Lastly assuming you have a good strong lift pump, crappy diesel is never your friend in a marginal start scenario.

But 10.5 volts when you go to start is not good.

 

[Bezzer]

Beezer wrote: Wow Roy! That's a lot of good information. I'll print and read it a few more times but I can start with a couple things that your mentioned.
One the top right side of your post - shows #17....if you go back to #2 post you will see information about my batteries and load test but I'll attach them again to this post for you
The battery make is Wal-Mart Ever-Start Size 78 - 800 CCA -maintenance free batteries wired in parallel....same as I've been using for years.
My injection pump part # 02729611. When I looked it up it stated it was a DB2.

 

[dbrannon79]

You can edit your signature on your phone or on the pc by tapping on your name or icon at the top of the screen the. Under account details you should see signature. Tap on that and it‘ll open a text box to edit. You can do lots of fancy stuff like links and colored text too. Hit the save and your done!

Here’s what mine looks like on the phone just for reference

 

[royunion]

OK IF you have a 611 DB2 much of what I wrote does not apply. It will inject on crank, but fuel pressure affects the timing (cold start) and hence ease of starting.

"Maintence free" battery does not not mean anything but STILL could be low amp cranking, however not knowing what they tested it with I cannot tell. A carbon pile load tester puts an actual load and the you can see if the battery falls on it face fast or not.

I worked at the Globe Union (aka Johnson Controls) battery plant in the test lab in Milwaukee Wisconsin just before the AGM battery was introduced to the market. It was decided by the "top brass" NOT to make them flooded by acid fill in the field because the AGM design would last too long. AGM batteries are packed mat and Electrode which does not allow the battery electrodes to fall apart over time and jolting around in a vehicle which makes them fail. A regular flooded battery will take a 12.6 charge but when old they will not have any reserve capacity amps and when loaded they just fall flat. The battery business is a scam. Plus ll batteries sulfate over time and dry out. There is no such thing as a lead acid Maintence free battery. Finally the lower cost battery has an alloy Electrode instead of pure lead which contributes to the electrodes crumbling apart. Since are not Ever start platinum they are not AGM unless old by the old name simply "AGM"

So since you have a DB2 611 TD should be 4 to 8 psi and if you can regulate it it at 6 psi to start.

You can use a Holley carb regulator like a holley 12-803 type etc. You cannot put more than 9 psi on those or they won't function and you need a bypass version for higher pressures to regulate down.

You need to be sure your cold start circuit is working to the solenoids in the DB2 cap.

I cannot read the full battery test results but either putting a hard charge on the batteries to 13.2 and see if it starts immediately and if the battery recovers from the glow plug wait to start. Mine drops to 10.3 but when light goes out it bounces up 11.9 votes before I crank