HE351VE

[chevyCowboy]

a guy i know is selling one prertty cheap $250
from what iv been told the diaphragm is adjustable so it the speed at which it starts to spool can be adjusted. it is elctronicaly controlled but iv been told it can be made to be controlled maually. it is non wastegated but nither is the Att iv heard something about a way to put one onafter the turbo

any one know any thing about them
just an idea and id like to try something differnt then the norm and iv got the fab skills to do most any thing

 

[Acesneights1]

:nopics:

 

[chevyCowboy]

ok ill see if i can go get some he dont live to far away i do know that it is not a t3 flang so it will take some work to make it fit

 

[Rafedial1]

this is the VGT turbo that comes on the newer 24 valve Cummins right?
here's a place to see pics of it internally...http://www.diyefi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=199&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I am also very interested on running a VGT turbo on my 6.5. Boost right off idle....drool
Question is, like you said, how do you control the turbine pitch/flow without some time of computer/control module?

 

[chevyCowboy]

my buddy the one who has it was going to put it on a car i forget what and he told me his plan was to make something similar to the way we make turbo masters there is an actuator or something dont know to much yet ganna go c if he is home hope to have some info and pic later

 

[turbovanman]

You get basically get VGT's for free on Ebay as no one wants them, chew your buddy down to $100-$150.

As for controlling them, its difficult but not impossible. A site, I believe its called "real home made turbo" had a similiar turbo working using a regular wastegate can hooked up to the vanes to control it, it took awhile but he's got it working, not sure how stable his boost is. He is using a 351VGT turbo, removed the guts and just used a mechanical link to the vanes, and it was on his 2.0L Talon.

The other option is Megasquirt, they have an output to control a VNT turbo.

My friend is putting the 351VGT on his Omni, using MS, should be fun, :thumbsup:

Found the thread-

http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0

 

[SmithvilleD]

This kind of curiosity & possible experimentation is why I didn't want enthusiastic ATT support to overwhelm discussions about other turbos that may prove to work well on the 6.5. The DSM'rs (Eagle Talons & Mitsu Eclipses) have empirically proven (& disproven) many turbos. Their now available knowledge base was built from almost 2 decades of experimentation starting in the early 90's (bought my '91 AWD Talon new).

No doubt there are multiple cost-effective turbo options that will work in the 6.5 application out there. But not really big $ profit potential returns to incentivize vendors to R&D 6.5 turbos. So that leaves us 6.5 enthusiasts to find new, better 6.5 turbo options. Pretty much what Stateman & TurbineDoc did with the ATT.

That realhomemadeturbo link reminds me how much I miss the tuning/datalogging tools available for the DSM's. Being able to log all the ECM read & driven parameters, with multiple datapoints per second. And then display it all in the rolling graph made interpreting how things were interacting so........ much clearer & more quickly/better understood.

If you've read the lengthy "more flow with less boost" debates regarding the ATT & other turbos, you've seen some questions such a datalogging tool can provide definitive answers to. For our 6.5 turbo R&D, we just need an appropriately calibrated, hotwire mass air sensor (the Duramax's & last 6.5's have them) & the ability to log the output.

Looks to me like what kept those discussion's conclusions a bit cloudy, was the lack of mass air data. Gotta drill down to lbs/min of air.

I also find these variable geometry turbos an intriguing 6.5 option if we can figure out a workable control mechanism. With the limited fueling/heat energy our 6.5's have to spool any turbo, the concept has real merit. The OEM's seem to like the variable technology to get the broad rpm range of response the mainstream diesel pickup customers seem to want.

 

[Turbine Doc]

. Being able to log all the ECM read & driven parameters, with multiple datapoints per second. And then display it all in the rolling graph made interpreting how things were interacting so........ much clearer & more quickly/better understood.

If you've read the lengthy "more flow with less boost" debates regarding the ATT & other turbos, you've seen some questions such a datalogging tool can provide definitive answers to. For our 6.5 turbo R&D, we just need an appropriately calibrated, hotwire mass air sensor (the Duramax's & last 6.5's have them) & the ability to log the output.

Looks to me like what kept those discussion's conclusions a bit cloudy, was the lack of mass air data. Gotta drill down to lbs/min of air.

I also find these variable geometry turbos an intriguing 6.5 option if we can figure out a workable control mechanism. With the limited fueling/heat energy our 6.5's have to spool any turbo, the concept has real merit. The OEM's seem to like the variable technology to get the broad rpm range of response the mainstream diesel pickup customers seem to want.

Only the 6.5 (S) engine had a MAF sensor 97+, and it was sort of a dumb one, sort of do you; or dont you have flow input to the PCM, I tried with my scan tool and could not break into seeing actual flow #, but since the device is semi active if you know of a way to make it a data sensor I'd love to share notes on it.

IIRC the EFI live folks were toying with something for the 6.5 but not many takers on it to make it a viable for them to 'go to market" with it.

VNT for the 6.5 would be awesome IMO, I love it in my 01 TDI beetle, but again a ready to run packet is only gonna happen with a 6.5 enthusiast stepping up to the bar to make it happen. I looked at the Aurora for the 6.5 too much $$$ for me to go there, same as with discussions I had with turbonetics for a custom 6.5 turbo project.

Old NASCAR before there was such a thing was bunch of folks mixing & matching junkyard parts and seeing what works & what don't, so don't think it is ATT or nothing here at all, ironically the ATT came about because some "experts" at other sites said ATT would not work.

 

[SmithvilleD]

Yeah, I was thinking I'd read something suggesting the MAS input was used in relation to EGR control on the OBD2 6.5's.

My thought in looking at an OEM 6.5 MAS was that there would already be existing/integrated PCM leads to power a MAS/read that local air temp, & have calibration tables in the programming to convert the signal to air mass per unit time.

The piggyback (& could also run standalone) ECM I used on my Talon allowed running a recalibrated Mustang hot-wire type MAS to accomodate much higher airflows than the OEM MAS could read well.

The broad OEM use of MAS & modders has made plenty of aftermarket MAS available for reasonable cost - search "mass airflow sensors" at Summit Racing.

The trick is how to read, integrate & synch the sensor into the PCM datastream. I've been meaning to email Stephan at Engh Motors to see if he knows how often the 6.5 PCM reads the engine sensors, & if it's feasible to datalog those data streams. Even if we had to pull that data manually from recorded tables & put into some type of Excel graphing tool - it could be a very useful analytical tool.

 

[chevyCowboy]

well guys i talked with the guy who has the turbo he wont budge on the price says he bought it for 500 rebuilt so seeing as hes a friend and a good guy im prolly ganna give him what hes askin

Hes bringing it to work tomorow and im ganna take a look at it. he had intended to use it on a mitsu gallant early 90's i think so im betting it will work well on a 6.5.

So looks like im ganna be the ginny pig for this one but id like to be able to say i did something no one else has done (that i know of)

ill keep you up to date

couldnt an airflow sensor be instaled and im sure there is a progam out there to read it from a lap top in the cab?

 

[SmithvilleD]

It's not really a problem to power & read the MAS with some type of software/laptop (could be one of the MAS makers has such software).

Ideally, you want the mass airflow data synch'd in time with the other PCM read sensor data. So you can graph/watch/interpret how things interact. Some of the datalog/graphing programs let you playback the data - like the screenviews in the link from earlier in this thread.

As one example where this can be useful: During times when parameters are changing quickly (like when the turbo starts to spool/create boost), looking at the data stepwise - as it changes over small time increments, can really illustrate & more precisely define how a given turbo spools. Can also be useful in showing/comparing how different turbos respond/recover boost during gearshifts.

FWIW - Mitsu made a limited number of Gallant's around '90-91 w/ the AWD/2L turbo drivetrain similar to the same year DSM's. They can make for a nasty-fast (low 11's on normal/performance street tires) sleeper. If you see a Galant of that vintage w/ little VR-4 badges, it might well be faster than it appears.

 

[chevyCowboy]

well i looked at it today and its ganna take some work and some creativity but i think i can do it

first problem is that the flange for the manifold is turned 90* from the way ours sets but ill make sumthin up for that its handy havin a metal shop at my disposal and its a different flange not a t3 at least it looks bigger.

second problem the outlet to the intake comes straight out of the front of the turbo ganna have to get creative there im thinking flex for now or maybe pvc and then get somethig bent up

third posible problem on the cummins it was water cooled i dont know if i will have to figure out how to plumb it into the cooling system or if it can run with out the cooling any one know???

fourth the outlet on the down pipe thats with it is 4in and i have 3in but the outlet on the turbo is 3in and uses a v band clamp so that should be an easy fix

i get it tomorow and ill take pic and put them up he has done a little work to it alredy takin off the electronics and the actuator and filled in some water holes not sure on that ganna ask tomorow

 

[SmithvilleD]

Just did a little checking and evidently this Holset has a unique turbine inlet flange. Not T3, bigger, but not T4 either. There is a seller on ebay offering a flange specifically for the HE351VE.

On the compressor housing, you might research to see if there is another Holset turbo using the same size compressor wheel - could be an HX-40 comp housing or other Holset compressor housing (without the 90 degree bend outlet) might work.

On the water cooled center section, I'd find a Dodge/Cummins truck that has this turbo & check out how it's plumbed. Obviously that will be 5.9 Cummins specific, but seeing how they did it might help decide how to best mimic that on your 6.5. If memory serves, the DSM turbo's water jacket had one port (input I think) plumbed to below the thermostat. The other port went to a water pipe that would correspond to our 6.5's lower rad hose. Could well be the direction of water flow thru the turbo water jacket doesn't matter - just so water flows thru.

I think these turbos have a rotational speed sensor somewhere also. Heard somebody talking about trying to use one of the new Garrett compressor speed sensor gauge setups w/ this Holset.

Also heard some theorizing on why so many of these turbos show up for cheap on ebay. They were suggesting sometimes the variable geo mechanism gets sluggish or stuck from soot/carbon/whatever in the exhaust stream - & many get replaced. Then somebody takes the used turbo & cleans the mechanism so it works again & puts it on ebay. Don't know if this is true but it seems reasonable.

 

[turbovanman]

Are you sure they are watercooled?

If they are, I wouldn't worry about it, diesel turbo's run such low EGT's, its not an issue for turbo life.

 

[chevyCowboy]

i got the turbo at lunch i can wait to get started on it but its ganna havew to wait a couple weeks going out of town and having a big party for my dads 60th bday next weekend

here are some pics nothing is clocked the way it needs to be but i was told it all can be clocked how i need it also i said that the exhaust flange was 90* out but i just was remembering it incorectly

1) oil outlet
2)water outlet
3) oil inlet
4) water inlet
5) arm that controlls actuator in the open position i think cant remember what he said
6)pluged water ports

 

[SmithvilleD]

Years back when I'd had work done by TEC (Turbocharger Engineering Corp - location I'd dealt with was in Colorado, but website now shows CA), they'd told me they saw notably fewer indications of significant oil coking & shaft blue'ing on the OEM turbos that had the water cooling around the ctr section.

They didn't really think it was high EGT's while running that cause the oil coking etc., when EGT's got way too hot, things failed catastrophically. Their theory was if the engine got shut off when things were really still to warm, with just lube oil cooling, once that oil flow stopped carrying heat out, heat soak coke things. They figured while the coolant flow also stops - there's still water surrounding the cartridge & that water probably flashed to steam - thereby taking a bunch of heat engery out of the turbo - energy that went towards driving the water thru its phase change from liquid to vapor.

I believe that lever moves the vanes in/out in the direction parallel to the centershaft of the turbo. Moving those vanes out to where they surround the turbine wheel to varying degrees. At the max flow point, it's a big honk'n turbine housing. If the control stuff can be worked out reasonably well, the turbo itself looks like it can be set to the absolute minimum drive pressure nessary to provide adequate mass airflows at highway cruising speeds. So you'd think that turbo should be capable of providing some nice fuel economy gain like the ATT.

Since I live reasonably close in a northern suburb of Kansas City, I might like to come up and check out the turbo some weekend. Interesting project!

 

[chevyCowboy]

im heading down to kc sat afternoon and will be there till mon going to worlds of fun sun and oceans of fun monday ill have the truck and the turbo pm me if you want to meet up im leavin at 2 sat

 

[turbovanman]

I just an almost brand new one for $62, so I might use this on my van, maybe play around with the vanes until I get the best of both worlds, :thumbsup:

 

[chevyCowboy]

damn you got a beter deal than me oh well get what you can right
i found that it can be clocked how ever you want it you will just have to do some triming on the flange that the elctronics and the motor that adjusted the vanes on the cummins to get it turned so the oil drain sits at the bottom looks like i wont be able to do much with it till next week. it fair week this week and havin a big party for my dads 60th bday got a lot to do