Hard staring in any temperature

[Silverado6.5td]

Demographics: tell us about your truck and your ambient conditions:

- Year: 1998
- Truck model and class K1500
- Automatic or Standard - Automatic
- Mileage: (indicate miles or km) 320,000km
- Replaced parts and mods (IP, PMD, chip/PCM, TM, injectors etc) - IP(latest model) glow plugs(60g), PMD behind bumper, marine injectors, re-flashed PCM, manual turbomaster
- Model: ‘S’ or ‘F’ engine, NA or Turbo, EGR? Original "S" engine, but reflashed to eliminate vacuum system and now mechanical, so no EGR
- Ambient outside temp: (indicate *C or *F) 17 celcius today, but it has same problem at any temp. If plugged in it will start, but hard and lots of smoke
- What fuel are you using? (#1 Diesel, #2 Diesel, Bio, VO, WVO, etc) Whatever the local gas stations have and a fuel additive
- What fuel additives are you using? Boss diesel lubricant or 2 stroke oil
- Where are you located? By Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

General maintenance: inspect and evaluate the condition of each. When were they last changed?
- Air filter - I need to change it. I has the MAFS eliminated in the reflash so I could put an after market air filter system on it.
- Fuel filter - probably about 6000km ago
- CDR Valve? At same time as all the other new parts(about 2,000km ago)
- Coolant – last flushed/replaced at About 6,000km ago
- Oil – synthetic/regular, changed at - regular oil about 2,000km ago
- Batteries – state of charge, (matched set) replaced at - GM batteries, matched set and passed a load test with my tester
- Battery cables and grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened): Grounds done with IP, injectors, glow plug updates and I recently did the side post terminal upgrade with 1-1/4 bolts
- Glow Plugs - how many miles on them? 2000km, What type? 60g
- Injectors - last changed at 2,000km with marine injectors


History: (Describe how the problem first appeared.)
- What were you doing when it happened? it just slowly got worse since I did all the work on it
- How was the truck running fine before this problem appeared? It worked great after I did the major upgrades and slowly got worse
- Has this problem ever happened before? No
- Describe any related factors that might be part of the problem. Starter sometimes lags at disengaging. I have a new solenoid to install and will check the rest of starter, such as brushes
- Have you checked for DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)? (Y.N) Yes And? The only code that just came on not long ago was P1870(transmission component slipping) I lose overdrive after tranny warms up. I have it scheduled for the tranny shop this friday, but am having difficult getting it started to get there. I had it at the GM shop and had the IP timed, but still have the same problem.


Diagnostics:

1] Starting:
1a] Does the engine start? If I have it plugged in for half a day it does start, but not easy and lots of black smoke
1b] Does the engine crank over? Yes, it cranks over and gets lots of pressure on the oil pressure gauge
1c] Are your batteries fully charged? Yes
1d] Have you removed, cleaned, and tightened all battery connections? Yes
1e] Does your Wait to Start light come on for a time? How long? It comes on for about 8 seconds and then cuts out for a couple seconds and then on for a second or so and does that about 3 or 4 times. I can hear the supply pump running and they both seem to cutout at the same time.
1f] Does your glow plug light come on? Same thing as above???? For how long?
1g] Do you see smoke from the exhaust while cranking? Yes What color? Black

2] Fuel Issues (if not running):
2a] Can you hear your lift pump working? Yes
2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ?
2c] Loosen the inlet line from the IP – is fuel coming out (Lift Pump on)? ___________
2d] Loosen an injector line and crank the engine - does fuel come out? _________
2e] Do you hear a vacuum (hiss) when you remove the fuel cap? ___________

3] PMD / IP Issues
3a] Location of PMD (on pump, on intake, remote mounted) Remote mounted behind bumper, new at 2000kms ago
3b] Condition of Extension harness (if used) Vendor or Homemade? I made it myself with all soldered and heat shrinked connections
3c] Condition of grounds / ground wires to IP / PMD. Check Harness. All good connections
3d] PMD Make: I got it from diesel supply
3e] PMD Age: new at 2000kms ago

4] Stalling Issues
4a] Do you experience stalling only when hot? No
4b] Does it stall under particular circumstances? (ie hit bump, or on accel) No
4c] Does pouring cool water over the IP seem to help with restarting? Don't think it affects my situation
4d] Is stalling momentary (engine recovers)? N/A
4e] Does SES light come on when engine hiccups? N/A
4f] Does cruise control quit working when engine hiccups? N/A
4g] Does re-starting seem to reset engine, restoring cruise and power? N/A
4h] Changes to dash lights or instruments during stalling events? N/A

5] Running Issues
5a] On cold start, does upper rad hose get hard before engine warms up? Not sure
5b] Any bubbles or oil film in coolant overflow tank? it appears they might be a very little oily film in reservoir
5c] Any white slime on oil surfaces (dipstick, CDR, oil Fill cap)? No
5d] Excessive white smoke from exhaust on cold start? No
5e] Excessive black smoke from exhaust under hard acceleration? N0

6] Performance Issues
6a] Do you have gauges? Yes, EGT, Boost, Tranny Temp
6b] Maximum boost under load? 7-8, pulling trailer about 10
6c] Have you added a performance PCM (reflash) or Chip? Yes
6d] Have you changed exhaust / downpipe / crossover? Yes, 2-1/2 crossover and 3-1/2 downpipe and 4' exhaust
6e] Wastegate – mechanical or vacuum? Mechanical

7] Temperature-related Issues:
7a] Single or dual thermostats? Dual
7b] Have you replaced them lately? No, not since I have owned it, so not sure how old they are. Manufacturer of replacements? Unknown
7c] Have you pulled and cleaned Radiator and coolers lately? I cleaned the radiator when I flushed the syatem about 8,000km ago
7d] Have you replaced the fan clutch? No Manufacturer of replacement? Most likely stock
7e] (winter) Have you tested your antifreeze? Yes Good to what temp? -45celcius for our canadian winters
7f] (winter) Are you using a winter grille cover? No

List and describe any other factors which are not addressed in this checklist. We can’t see, hear, smell, or touch your truck, so the more descriptive information you can give, the more likely it is that somebody can assist you.

After I did all the work to my truck(IP, glows, injectors, PMD etc) my truck ran great, even without timing the pump.(I did just have it timed by GM yesterday). It slowly started to get hard to start and now won't start without being plugged in even after I put the manual glow plug modification in it. After it is plugged in for 8 or more hours it will start, but it takes a bit of turning over to get it ti fire. It pumps out a cloud of black smoke and it seconds it idles just fine and smooth even when the IP wasn't timed by GM. After I have started it the first time of the day, it seems to start ok, if it is started within hours of the first start, but I noticed for the first time after having it timed by GM, that after I got home and the truck sat for about 6 hours, it wouldn't start. I haven't tried plugging it in again to see if it will start, because I have been trying other things first and it shouldn't need to be plugged in when it is 17 celcius out. I tried unplugging the engine coolant sensor and it made no difference. I checked the glow plug relay and it appears to be working as I took out the first glow plug on the drivers side and it cycled as the relay clicked on and off and it got red hot(about 1/4 inch of tip). I didn't check the others as I figured since they are all new and the glow plug relay made the one get hot that the glow plug system was working. I am also assuming that it is getting sufficient fuel since it runs fine after it starts even when pulling a trailer. I have put a test light on all the drivers side glow plug wires and they are getting power.


I am not sure what is the problem as the glow plugs system appears to be functioning and if it were a fuel supply problem I would think it would affect the performance of the truck under load and it runs and idles excellent once it finally starts.

 

[JMJNet]

Sounds like whatever the stealership did in the timing may mess it up instead of fixing it.

 

[JiFaire]

You need to also check the GPs on the passenger side... there are 2 wires coming off your GP controller, one for each side, and they split into 4 on each side. One bad connection can lose you 4 plugs...

Also, AC60gs need a little longer glow time to be really effective. Pull your CTS plug and try that - it will convince your PCM that it's -40*C adn give you the max glow time. Most people with 60gs or Duraterms either put in a Heath reflash with extended glow time, or do the Glow Plug Mod located in the stickies. I live in Alberta like you - that modification is worth its' weight in gold.

 

[Silverado6.5td]

I do have the glow plug modification and it made no difference in trying to start the engine. I have also pulled the CTS sensor off and it also made no difference.

I also don't think the dealership made it worse as it still doesn't start any different from before it went in to the GM shop. Hopefully they just fine tuned the timing.

I just took it to them thinking the timing was out since I just set it as close as possible when I installed the new IP.

 

[JiFaire]

It's gotta be glows... check the passenger side plugs. It only takes one wire and she won't start worth beans.

 

[Silverado6.5td]

I will check that passenger bank of glows tomorrow and the rest of drivers side. Gotta take the kidlets to soccer now. I also plugged it in again and will check to see if it will start since the IP timing. It will have about 6 hours being plugged in by the time I get back.

 

[mfgguru]

How fast does this thing turn over? If it is cranking really slow, it won't start worth beans. On my truck, the ground connections on the batteries get corroded and it starts turning over slower and it starts much harder when it does that. Could be the starter on it's way out too.

 

[JMJNet]

Also check all the cables and connectors and battery charge. They may forget to hook things up correctly when doing the work.

 

[Matt Bachand]

Also check all the cables and connectors and battery charge. They may forget to hook things up correctly when doing the work.

Add the side post batt mod if not done already, a fast cranking engine is back to basics (as are clean grounds) but can't run before you walk.

 

[buddy]

Ask the stealership what they set your timing to or have them actually show you. Im willing to bet they messed it up, stealers dont know jack about this stuff and you have a performance PCM which probably threw them way off the tech data they have in the manual.

You made your own PMD harness, try ohming each of those lines out from the PMD connector to the grey IP harness connector. The line that goes to the IP is kind of hard to get to. What did you do with the PMD ground? Did you run that black wire back to the IP where it was to start with?

Sounds like Glos, but who knows, it also should start up pretty easy if you had the block heater on.

Try unplugging the OS from on top of the IP and start it up, which might take a bit of cranking at first.

 

[JiFaire]

Go back to post #4, guys ... he said that the dealer setting timing did NOT make the problem worse... it was bad before he took it in. He also said that it runs just FINE after he gets it started... which it wouldn't, if the timing was messed up.

This is a starting issue; if it starts when plugged in (albeit poorly), and doesn't start when NOT plugged in, it's more than likely glow plugs.

Want to test?

Put the wife's hair dryer into the air intake for 5 minutes and then start it. If it vrooms right up, you found your problem.

These damn things won't start worth beans without a good glow system, and it's still cold in the mornings around here.

 

[Silverado6.5td]

The engine turns over quite fast, in 2-3 cranks I have almost full oil pressure. All the battery connections are good and batteries are fully charged. I did the side post mod not long ago and all the connections are tight and clean.

I checked all the connections, but all the dealership did was set the IP timing, so I don't think they would have disconnected the batteries. My friend is the service manager and a GM master mechanic and I told him of the PCM upgrade. I could only assume he would have taken that into account when seeting the IP timing.

The PMD ground is on the pump still. If the truck started fine before and runs great after the first cold start, wouldn't that rule out the PMD or the harness?

I will try the OS test and checking the other glow plugs tomorrow. I am also going to look at the starter.

I had the truck plugged in for 5-1/2 hours while away at soccer and when I tried to start it, it turned over about 1/2 a crank and fired right up like it should. I will say that after the timing being set it starts allot better than when I had it plugged in and the timing wasn't set.

 

[JiFaire]

I had the truck plugged in for 5-1/2 hours while away at soccer and when I tried to start it, it turned over about 1/2 a crank and fired right up like it should. I will say that after the timing being set it starts allot better than when I had it plugged in and the timing wasn't set.

Sounding a lot like glow plugs...

Somebody's gonna owe the old guy beer...

 

[mitchedo]

My truck started like crap before I rebuilt the engine. ...even with new 60G glows. I would crank and crank and crank, and then the white smoke would fill the neighborhood. It smelled like the mosquito foggers I remember from living on base in Japan way back in the 60's. They sprayed diesel fuel from a fogger.

What I discovered when I put the thing back together this year is that the connectors on the glow plug wires get loose. My old glows were installed by the stealer, and they had bent a little curve in each glow plug tab to tighten up the connection. When I put in the new glows last year, I didn't bend the tabs and so the connections were loose.

This year, I noticed the loose fit of the glow wires, so I removed each one from the ceramic plug and squeezed it with pliers. The ones on the passenger side seem more brittle than the ones on the driver's side. I broke all four of them. I replaced the clips with ones from Autozone that fit back in the ceramic housing. It takes a special crimper to make those factory crimps on the wire and insulation, but I already had that.

Bear in mind, now I have a new engine and new injectors, but my truck now starts in less than a second when cold. This has been with temps as low as 40 degrees F. In fact, the truck starts faster when cold than when hot.

I also replaced the glow controller, and cleaned up all my grounds, but I think the clincher is making sure the wires fit tightly onto the plugs. They should snap on and be rather difficult to pull off. If they slide right off, they might not be tight enough.

My truck starts like a dream now with just a puff of black smoke.

You might want to check the compression too. I can't help but wonder if that was part of my problem.

 

[Silverado6.5td]

I was going to check on the glow plugs today after I changed the solenoid on my started, but that got put on hold until my starter gets replaced.

When I pulled it out, I found that the gear drive end of the started had no bearing left. I could move the whole shaft about 3/16 of an inch off center in any direction.

I am surprised it even started the truck as good as I thought it did. Not sure if that will have any impact on it not starting cold, but I would think it will turn over even better when it gets a new starter.

 

[Silverado6.5td]

I put in a new starter and it turns over real nice and a lot quieter. I think it must have been on it's way out from when I bought it.

Anyways, although it turns over so nice now it wasn't the cold start problem.

I will be checking the glow plugs tomorrow when I have time.:mad2:

 

[Silverado6.5td]

And the winner is........JiFaire :thumbsup:

6 of the 8 new WAP glow plugs (about 2000kms) were dead.

I kept the glow plugs I changed out for the WAPs, installated them and it fired up in 1 crank.

Thanks for all the input and suggestions. I learned that you can't expect new parts to last very long at least glow plugs anyways and the one I checked first happened to be 1 of the 2 that was good so I assumed the glows were ok.:mad2:

 

[JMJNet]

The in-famous WAP Glow Plug? casualty. This was covered a couple of years ago when they were burnt very fast like yours.
I hope you don't change it with WAP again, otherwise, you will be back again and said your GP are new.

Glad you fixed it!!!

 

[Silverado6.5td]

The next new glow plugs I put in will be Bosch Duraterm.