GM 6.5TD will not start

[benkilroy]

Hi all,
I'm a new member with C2500 in Ireland so I have no one to turn to as these vehicles are extremely rare here.
My truck never gave any trouble before now until just the other night the engine revved to about 3500revs and then died, when it was warm it would start again rev to 3500revs then die, the next day when the engine was cold cranking but nothing! I bought a new PMD/FSD as there was smoke coming off the old one, Still won't start,

There is fuel getting to the IP,
The shut off valve is being energised,
There is a new PMD,
Glow plugs are working,
When I hook up my PC there are no Scan Errors present,
There is no fuel on the return line from the injectors when I'm cranking,

Any help or ideas would be very very much appreciated.

Cheers

 

[Rodd]

Let me be the first to welcome you to the forum. You need to do a couple of things to get the best help possible.

first you need to update your signature so it appears like the bottom of this message. You can do it by clicking on "user cp" at the top left and then clicking on signature link (I think it is on the left hand side of the page in the left column).

2nd you need to fill out the the diagnostic checklist found in the stickies at the top of the 6.5 page. Just copy and past it and answer all the questions as best as you can.

From your explanation I can guess that it is either the lift pump right under your truck located inside the frame under the driver seat, or the ops (oil pressure switch), or your fuel filter is clogged, or the filter sock in your tank is plugged, etc.

By answering all the questions in the checklist you narrow down the problem so you don't spend money replacing good parts.

 

[benkilroy]

details of 6.5td no start problem

Thanks for the advice Rodd

Demographics: tell us about your truck and your ambient conditions:

- Year: ______1995
- Truck model and class (ie: c2500) _________C2500
- Automatic or Standard __________AUTO
- Mileage: (indicate miles or km) _________16500 MILES
- Replaced parts and mods (IP, PMD, chip/PCM, TM, injectors etc) ___________PMD & COOLER
- Model: ‘S’ or ‘F’ engine, NA or Turbo, EGR? ______________
- Ambient outside temp: (indicate *C or *F) __________60*F
- What fuel are you using? (#1 Diesel, #2 Diesel, Bio, VO, WVO, etc) _________DIESEL
- What fuel additives are you using? ___________NONE
- Where are you located? _____________IRELAND

General maintenance: inspect and evaluate the condition of each. When were they last changed?
- Air filter _________GOOD
- Fuel filter _________GOOD
- CDR Valve? _________
- Coolant – last flushed/replaced at _____________GOOD
- Oil – synthetic/regular, changed at ___________NEEDS NEW OIL SOON
- Batteries – state of charge, (matched set) replaced at _____________GOOD
- Battery cables and grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened): ______________GOOD
- Glow Plugs - how many miles on them? _________ What type? _____________WORKING GOOD
- Injectors - last changed at _______________GOOD


History: (Describe how the problem first appeared.)
- What were you doing when it happened? ______________HARD ACCELERATION
- How was the truck running fine before this problem appeared? _____________ABSOLUTELY PERFECT
- Has this problem ever happened before? _______________________NO
- Describe any related factors that might be part of the problem. ______________CHECK ENGINE LIGHT WOULD COME ON INTERMITTENTLY WHILE DRIVING
- Have you checked for DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)? (Y.N) ____YES And? ________NO ERROR CODES

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Diagnostics:

1] Starting:
1a] Does the engine start? _________ NO
1b] Does the engine crank over? ________YES
1c] Are your batteries fully charged? _________YES
1d] Have you removed, cleaned, and tightened all battery connections? ________YES
1e] Does your Wait to Start light come on for a time? How long? _________7 SECONDS
1f] Does your glow plug light come on? _________YES For how long? _________7 SECONDS
1g] Do you see smoke from the exhaust while cranking? What color? ________NONE

2] Fuel Issues (if not running):
2a] Can you hear your lift pump working? ____________YES AFTER CRANKING
2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ? _________ NO
2c] Loosen the inlet line from the IP – is fuel coming out (Lift Pump on)? ___________YES
2d] Loosen an injector line and crank the engine - does fuel come out? _________NO
2e] Do you hear a vacuum (hiss) when you remove the fuel cap? ___________YES

3] PMD / IP Issues
3a] Location of PMD (on pump, on intake, remote mounted) ___________PMD & HEATSINK ON THE INTAKE
3b] Condition of Extension harness (if used) Vendor or Homemade? _________BRAND NEW
3c] Condition of grounds / ground wires to IP / PMD. Check Harness. _________LOOKS GOOD VISUALLY
3d] PMD Make: ___________ NOT A STANDYNE, IT WAS SUPPLIED BY DIESEL CARE.COM
3e] PMD Age: _____________BRAND NEW

Cheers Ben

 

[chrisk1500]

Oh no....sounds like the armature shaft in the IP....

Maybe someone else will chime in to be certain....

 

[chrisk1500]

EDIT - smoke from the PMD might indicate a burnt harness to the PMD....better check all wires closely...

 

[jbsaxman]

I agree, Chris. Sounds like a fubar IP. The surging to 3500RPM sounds very suspect.

Sorry, mate, it does sound to me like the worst case in this instance. One thing I would STRONGLY suggest when you replace your IP: Get the PMD OUTSIDE of the engine bay. It sounds like you have it on a heatsink mounted to your intake. I would suggest buying or building a longer harness and mounting that bad buy right behind the bumper. It will get the proper cooling it needs there.

 

[Rodd]

Chris may be right but there are some free things you can do before you go replace the IP.

1. open the t-valve and put the hose into a containter to catch any fuel. Then turn the key to the on position. If your lift pump is good you will get a steady stream coming out of the hose. You should also hear the LP clicking/humming. It could also hum and not be good. The key is do you get any fuel coming out the T-valve w/ the key in the on position. Do not turn over!!!!! If no fuel replace lift pump. If fuel go to step 2.

2. Unplug optical sensor. It is plugged into the top center of the IP located just under the intake. You can get to it without removing the intake. Try and start. It will take about 10-15 seconds to start. If it starts it will be in limp mode w/ the trucks computer controling the 3 electronic connections to the pump. You will also get a ses light.

I just had this thought, Does your tank have fuel??? Your tank will not be all the way empty when it stops pumping fuel. The fuel sending unit sits about 2" above the bottom of the tank. You might want to try and pour some fuel in the fuel filter canister, insert filter, screw on cap, and then try and start (after you put 10 liters or so of diesel into the tank). Just a thought.

 

[buddy]

Sounds to me like a bad IP.

Chris...I think he meant the exhaust was smoking, not his PMD

This is for Rodd...Are you sure the lift pump operates in the ON position? Because mine doesnt until I crank, and pretty much every time someone recommends checking the bleeder valve you have to crank the engine to see the lift pump shoot the fuel out.

Ben
Do you have an EGR on the top of your intake? If no then you have an "F" engine, or you can just look at you VIN#, an "F" engine is also referred to as L65, whereas the EGR'd "S" engines are L56.

Do you use Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel, or do you still have regular diesel there? ULSD will kill your IP with no lubrication additive.

How long have you had this truck and how many miles have you had it? Do you know how many miles are on the injectors? Probably not your immediate problem, but you should know this.

No fuel out of the IP, I had this same issue, ended up replacing the IP after trying the PMD.

And first of all, your GLO-PLUG light cycle is supposed ot be 20 seconds, you must have some issue with you glo-plugs or controller to start with. That shouldnt cause the high revving though.

Can you tell us what exactly is happening when you crank? Does it just crank smoothly, no sign of turning over? Is there any smoke out the exhaust when cranking? Does it seem like its about to turn over after a few seconds of cranking but doesn't?

The PMD was a good candidate since it controls IP fuel output, too bad though. If it is just cranking smoothly with no sign of turning over and no smoke I'd say it could be your crank position sensor. If it acts like it wants to turn over and smokes, there should be some fuel at the injector for one, but that would be indicative of a fuel shutoff solenoid issue.

First try taking off the fuel cap, assuming you have a good amount of fuel in the truck because low fuel like stated before is a bad thing, and hope you didnt park on a steep hill. Try cranking with fuel cap off. Probably wont work, but then also crack the bleeder valve on top of the fuel filter open and crank to see if it will start.

Air in the fuel lines will cause your condition, and fool the heck out of any technician trying to diagnose it, and usually leads to a lot of part swapping. Make sure all the rubber hoses are in good condition. Low fuel in the tank will put air in the lines. If you got any vacuum hiss when you open the bleeder valve there is definately air in your system.

 

[benkilroy]

Thanks all! Rodd, chrisk1500, jbsaxman, buddy this is brilliant information! I wont get back to this project for a few days, but i will be running through everything as you have all advised and let you know the results.
Thanks.

 

[jbsaxman]

One thing to consider, Ben, if it is the IP, you COULD convert it to a mechanical DB2 IP for probably less money than it would take to buy a new electronic DS4 IP. With the mechanical IP, you don't have a PMD to worry about, they are a bit less complicated so IP shops are more likely to rebuild them (or so I've heard) and you are flying by cable, not wire. My PMD is on its way out, so as soon as it goes (and I have a bit of $$) I will be converting to a DB2.

Just a thought, though.

 

[JiFaire]

Boy, not sure I'd do that, jb... the DS-4 is pretty reliable if treated well, and there are a lot of electronic systems that work together in our trucks... your cruise won't work anymore, the 4L80e transmission needs a new control unit, you won't be able to control EGR function or Turbo (yeah, you can bypass those)...

The DB-2s also had a problem with head warping that the DS-4s don't...

The advantage is you can turn them up manually

I've read about he conversion also, but I think I would rather stick with the DS-4. The price difference isn't all that much (most I've seen is a couple hundred), it's a one-time cost, and remoting the PMD seems to take that out of the equation, too.

Biggest problem for me is, I'm not sure I'm a good enough mechanic to do that conversion, either - but I would tackle a DS4 change.

Every point needs a counter-point.
JMHO.

 

[jbsaxman]

Oops, Jim, I didn't even think about the tranny when I said that. Scratch converting to DB2 - I have a hand shaker, so the conversion is MUCH simpler on my rig.

Thanks for calling me on that.

 

[buddy]

I guess the glo-plug light might only last for 7 seconds if youve already cycled them once or twice. But the first start if the truck is actually cold, as in ambient temp after sitting all night, the Glo-Plug light should be on for 20 seconds.

 

[JiFaire]

Thanks for calling me on that.

Not 'calling you on that', jb ... I value your opinion because you're usually right!

In this case, my biggest reason for thinking I'd stick with the DS-4 is that I doubt I'm competent enough to make the swap to DB-2...

With these trucks, the mark of true genius is the ability to fix what you can, and the humility to call for help when you can't... I get myself into more damn trouble when I just forge ahead blindly...

The nice thing about a community like this is that SOMEBODY here knows the answers for real.

 

[JiFaire]

I guess the glo-plug light might only last for 7 seconds if youve already cycled them once or twice. But the first start if the truck is actually cold, as in ambient temp after sitting all night, the Glo-Plug light should be on for 20 seconds.

At his ambients? 60*F ?

At MY ambients (-34*C), yeah.

And that still isn't enough!!

 

[buddy]

My Glo-Plug light stays on for 20 seconds any time first thing in the morning, and its like between 50-90*F all year.

I even have the supposed fast heating ones. They work better than the ones in it before too.

Besides, we're looking for things wrong with his truck

 

[jbsaxman]

Not 'calling you on that', jb ... I value your opinion because you're usually right!

In this case, my biggest reason for thinking I'd stick with the DS-4 is that I doubt I'm competent enough to make the swap to DB-2...

With these trucks, the mark of true genius is the ability to fix what you can, and the humility to call for help when you can't... I get myself into more damn trouble when I just forge ahead blindly...

The nice thing about a community like this is that SOMEBODY here knows the answers for real.

Thanks for the compliment, Jim. If I'm usually right it's only from reading posts by you, gmtdc, Goldsburg, TurbineDoc, etc.

I've talked to Ratman a bit about the conversion and from what I understand it's a relatively easy conversion. BUT we both have manual trannies. So we don't have anything to worry about with the transmission shift timing.

I know what you mean about getting yourself in trouble by blindly forging ahead. I do that all the time. LOL.

 

[matuva]

My bet is the IP too.
Last time I saw a smoking PMd, it was because of a short in the solenoid of the IP. A new PMD and a new IP later, she starts again and ran fine, untill he cracked the block. But that's another story---

 

[Turbine Doc]

Chris may be right but there are some free things you can do before you go replace the IP.

1. open the t-valve and put the hose into a containter to catch any fuel. Then turn the key to the on position. If your lift pump is good you will get a steady stream coming out of the hose. You should also hear the LP clicking/humming. It could also hum and not be good. The key is do you get any fuel coming out the T-valve w/ the key in the on position. Do not turn over!!!!! If no fuel replace lift pump. If fuel go to step 2.

Rodd OBD-IIs come on with key on and runs until pressure sensing in internal lift pump ontrol is satisfied, OBD-I has to actually be cranking, however in OBD I with key on and 12V applied to pin G of DLC connector then lift should run see post 8 here http://www.dieseltowingresource.com/showthread.php?t=2227

OBD-IIs can be forced to run similarly with key on and 12v applied to diagnostic jumper, I'll have to go find pic of that, red wire black female connector hanging out of wire loom just below brake master cylinder

Ben hate to be bearer of bad news but smoke from area of IP never a good sign, and with 3500 rpm un-commanded from APP I'm inclined to agree with broken armature, still look at the free things it might be