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DS4 Injection Pump Output

3500_6.5

3500_6.5

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Location
Jamestown, OH
I am looking for more information on the DS4 pump. I am in the process of trying to build a 6.5 and before starting the build I talked with several of the reputable 6.5 builders out there (Heath and Peninsular Diesel mainly). Peninsular said max output of their DB2 pump was around 310-315hp. Heath said the DS4 could put out more fuel than the DB2 and that if I was wanting more power than the 300hp mark, then I should stick with the DS4. I was hoping for the 400hp range so Peninsular's DB2 was out of the question. Heath mentioned his soon to be released Merlin Pump and his Stage 3 Performance kit that is supposed to put the 6.5 at around 415 hp. I prefer to build my own truck and not use a kit, and I can get most the parts for a lot cheaper than Heath sells them for.

I began looking around (and have been since last August) and found claims all over the board for max ouput of a stock DS4. I have heard/read anywhere from 80mm3 up to a little over 120mm3 as max outputs. 80mm3 wont cut it, but 120mm3 is right around what I was looking for. From my understanding, the limiting factor is the ecm and not the pump? Or maybe both? So, before I go dumping too much time and money into trying to get max capabilities from the pump, I am wondering if anyone has any concrete proof or certainty of what a stock DS4 is actually mechanically capable of flowing. I would like to keep the truck electronic, but if its not possible to get the output out of a DS4 that I am wanting, without buying a $7000+ kit, then I will be going with a mechanical pump that I found that is flow tested to reach the outputs that I was looking for.

I have already done a lot of the upgrades I was planning, and still have other things to be done-including an Optimizer long block. All the upgrades I have done so far though can be used with a mechanical set up as well as the electronic set up, except my current tune obviously. So as of right now I am not too deep into the DS4 build to bail out of it if need be. Just hoping some of you have had enough time/experience with these pumps/tunes to know what the pumps actual limits are and whether or not I am wasting my time trying to reach my goals with the stock DS4 pump. If its just a tuning issue that it sounds like it might be, I am hoping a computer programmer friend of mine (well, sort of a friend...) would be able to help out with that... but that might lead to more $$$ than I am wanting/capable of spending at this time and, as far as I know, could just end up being a big waste of time and money. Any help or input is greatly appreciated!
 
Back in the day there were some actual flow sheets posted over at DP that showed a modified DS4(a hybrid of the 5521 and the 4468 or whichever one was used in 94 HO's) was able to flow an honest 92-93 MM3 of fuel out the injector. The math comes out to almost 120Mm3 of fuel output from the pump itself, but you also have to figure in pressure loss, and bypassed fuel from the injector when it opens as a certain amount of the fuel coming out of the pump is bypassed back to the tank from the injectors bypass. So after you figure in all of the losses the 120MM3 of fuel perfect figure does get reduced a bit. Would be nice to see some flow sheets on what it can do with a few different injectors and what pop pressure does to overall flow.
 
Your hoping for around 400HP and you worried about the cost of some programming? The programming is a drop in the bucket compared to what it cost to build a 400HP 6.5. Many of us have spent thousands and few have broke 300HP. If you spend the money it cost to build 400HP (that will stay together), then the tuning is cheap. What's a little fart when you have already shit yourself?
 
I talked to the guys who make the ford moose pumps and they can make a 110cc pump for a 6.5L. $750 with a running core. That's my next route.
 
vegtech said:
Your hoping for around 400HP and you worried about the cost of some programming? The programming is a drop in the bucket compared to what it cost to build a 400HP 6.5. Many of us have spent thousands and few have broke 300HP. If you spend the money it cost to build 400HP (that will stay together), then the tuning is cheap. What's a little fart when you have already shit yourself?
Click to expand...


LOL

PM Slim Shady, he's been working on programming for these pumps. I don't know what he's come up with.
 
Seeing as you have the ATT, check with either Leroy or Kojo for the updated tune (courtesy of slim, and from what I understand inputs from Ferm) which does better fuel mapping with that turbo.
 
I have talked to Slim off and on about a number of things, this included. It sounds like he is still working to figure some things out but has brought the tuning for ATT a long long way...beyond me what all he is working on and coming up with. After talking with KOJO a few times though, I believe I have the latest OBD-II tuning from KOJO. And, don't get me wrong, it runs very well. It is by far the best tune I have ran, just always looking for more I guess...

The reason I say it might cost too much cash is bc it doesn't sound like a $400 tune is going to accomplish what I am wanting. Sounds like the base GM programming has limitations on what can actually be done? Based off what I have heard/read and am understanding. So I will have to pay my said friend for his time to completely rewrite the program, if it can even be done, and pay for whatever additional equipment he might need to do that. And that could be who knows how much with no guarenteed results. I have not messed with the programming myself, so I don't even know what it would take to do something like this. Just has been a thought of mine.

Whether I have a lot in the rest of the engine or not is irrelevant when it comes to the programming part. As 6.5 stated, the guy that does the moose pump is selling them for $750 (which is who I was talking about in the original post) so there becomes a point when it is cheaper to get already proven power outputs and switch it over than it is to spend time/money in the programming that may or may not be possible. Would love to get a DS4 to the numbers I am wanting, just not sure how much time/money I am willing to put into it to get it there. I know many others, including Slim, have put a lot of time and effort in to get where they are now, so I can only imagine what I could be getting myself in to...

And Thefermanator, thanks for the input on the pump, never gave the pumping losses a thought. So you're saying the true 92mm3 at the injector was mathmatically figured at putting out around 120mm3 at the pump? Some interesting info, always learning something new. The injector flow capabilities is something I too have looked around for and was hoping to find some info on too. Doesn't seem like there is a whole lot of information out there on the 6.5 when it comes to tests like that. Too much time and expense I guess for something that doesn't have the aftermarket cash return as the newer diesels do.
 
Others have done the math on bore VS stroke of the DS4 pump and mathematically it should be able to push 120CC's of fuel. This is in a perfect world at minimum RPM's. As RPM's go up, pump output will go down due to fill speeds, internal losses, and the ability of the pump to refill internally. At 3000RPM's you could expect to see a realistic 92-93CC's of fuel into the cylinder is what I saw years back on a flow sheet for a modified DS4(stock 5521's are still very close to that output). The ECM can command full fuel from the pump, the kicker is wether or not the pump can supply what it is commanding. It would be nice to see actual flow numbers of what one could actually do, but the only numbers I have seen were about 9 years ago back when Canadianrigger was 1st pushing the 6.5 envelope with WESTON's help along with dieselpro doing the pump work(I'm probably dating myself here a bit and how long I've been on the boards as most probably have no idea who I'm talking about).
 
Seems like I recall hearing theory that the marine injector's slightly bigger orifice size somewhat lowered the % of fuel bypassed by the injector at high end of the fuel delivery spectrum.

Can't speak to whether or not it actually happens; haven't studied the internal passages that much. You can visually discern the orifice size difference when comparing regular/marine tips. Expect it's logical the marine injector could work better at typical marine engine running rpm & load, & higher fuel deliveries. Don't know what tradeoffs there might be?

Would be interesting to know if the DS4 can provide fuel rates as high, or higher than the mechanical marine pumps at say 2800+ rpm? In other words, can just re-programming (within the OEM ECM structure) make a stock DS4 fuel more like the marine mechanical pump's fuel curve at higher rpms?

If memory serves, the orifice size(s) were 0.6 mm - vs - 0.7 mm
 
Would be interesting. Wish someone with the means to do these tests would take the time to do it and share with others. But again, I think, especially now, with all the other high hp newer diesels out there, there seems to be few that have the means that are willing to spend the time and money on testing and building 6.5 products that go beyond the "normal" performance of the 6.5s. It would seem most are happy with the +/- 300hp limit that seems to have been put on the 6.5 in the performance world. I would like to push the limits, but am limited on my abilities to do so with the DS4 with what little I understand of the programming and with no means of running any real testing of any parts or programs other than what my butt dyno tells me, which I don't think is all that accurate...

Will probably be switching over to the DB2 as it seems that is currently the only proven way I have seen to put out the fuel I am wanting. Will be interesting once Heath has his pump on the market for a while and gets some of them out in the real world and we learn more about them and see what they can actually do. But I emailed him about it, again, and was told it is now available, but is around $2200 plus it requires his tune (for an additional charge) or else the truck wont even run. Hard for me to put that much faith (and money) into something that no one seems to know anything about and has no real proven numbers to back up the hp claims it is said to be capable of producing. Maybe we'll know more about it by the time I am ready to start playing with my Suburban...
 
Heath backs up his products so I believe him if he says it does what it does. I am sure if you bought it and it didn't do the job, he'd refund your money.
 
I'm just going to insert this for comparison. My brother and i built a db2 with the .29 plungers that did 120cc's and mantained that to 4500 rpm.
 
120MM3 of fuel in a DI can get you around 360-380 HP, I imagine in an IDI it would be closer to 325-340HP if the engine could flow enough air and had big enough pre-cups.
 
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