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Clutch opinions/experiences

vdb11

vdb11

Halfmoon Detroit #2
Messages
250
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Location
Stormstown, PA
Hey all! I have been MIA from this site for quite some time now. A lot of things have changed with regards to the truck since the last I posted on here but thats for another time.

One thing that hasn't changed is my annoying clutch. I just read through all of the clutch threads in here and have found some good info. Here is my short story:

When i rebuilt the engine two summers ago I put in a clutch from Advance and a solid flywheel from advance. So far I am not happy. It shakes when it first engages, it takes forever to engage, it doesn't disengage completely, and the pedal effort is WAY too hard. Both clutch and flywheel were made in China. For Thanksgiving break from classes, I would like to drop the NV4500 and rebuild it, as well as a new clutch.

So far I have been looking at the Phoenix Friction HD clutch kit (the high HP one with ceramic buttons) and the Centerforce Dual Friction kit. I am not going cheap this time, although nothing too pricey (sbc is out of my price range). Any input is welcome.

I tow occasionally with the truck, up to 12k lbs but that is only a few times a year. Mostly its my DD. I want a nice soft, easy pedal pressure with quick, complete engagement and disengagement. I don't mind a little shaking at start up (I have become used to it) but not too much, I noticed ak commented that the Centerforce has done this to him. The biggest thing to me is the pedal feel and the complete disengagement. This POS clutch I have now won't fully disengage so first is often a nightmare and reverse is simply jamming it in gear quickly and listen to it eat up the gear every time. I am sick of it. I have also gone through several master and slave cylinders over the last few years, two plastic masters in the last couple weeks.

Also, what should I do about the flywheel? Its basically new, I don't know if the shaking at startup is from a warped flywheel (I would be very disappointed if it is warped already) or just the crappy clutch. I don't really like the idea of buying another one, unless I can find an oem one and have it resurfaced.

What are your experiences? Like I said, I read through all of the clutch threads just looking for some more experiences. I would like to get a clutch ordered and the tranny rebuild kit in the next week or so. Thanks for any help!

Vance
 
I had a performer or performance or something like that from rockauto.com, which later I found out advance auto parts sold too. That clutch chewed through 3 slave cylinders, and on a 96 NV4500, the slave cylinder is internal. Than my buddy, with a powerstroke 6 spd manual, bought a south bend and he said it was night and day. So I decided not to skimp either and bought a south bend clutch and it really was quite a big difference. Wasn't able to try it for more than 3k miles or more, but while I had it it was amazing!!
 
the centerforce clutch didn't shake it just grabbed hard initially (from the ceramic I believe) and then behaved normally, good clutches. My only concern going behind a diesel would be that the flyweights may not help much because of the low rpm torque. I would call centerforce and ask them what the engagement rpm is on the flyweights.
 
I've never driven a new NV4500 but from what I've seen so far the trans doesn't shift as nice as the Getrag 5 speed in my 89 did after 700,000 miles. I drove that truck for weeks at a time when the clutch did go out without issue and it still shifted easier than my NV4500. I'd like to try a brand spanker out sometime and see how they shift.

I always used GM clutch es and had great longevity out of them. I installed 2 clutches in 800,000 miles. One blew a spring and the other the throw out bearing went bad. Both times I could start in gear and go from there
 
treegump, I know that south bend would be the ideal solution, it is just a little out of my price range. If it was something more gutsy than a 6.5, I would probably invest in one.

jrsavoie, I was thinking about GM clutches too, but I read somewhere they were repackaged luk clutches at a higher price. My dads t-tag has the original gm clutch in it or at least I think it does, if it isn't, its still a gm clutch. It only has 65k on it, but the thing weighs 9000# empty and it spend half of its life not empty, and it shifts like a dream, alot more fun to drive than mine.

ak, I was leaning towards the centerforce. What is the purpose of the flywheel weights, I believe its called "counterweight assist"? Do you think it is a problem if they aren't engaging? Do you think it would slip under heavy loads? I can see if I can get a hold of Centerforce.

Thanks for your help so far guys!

Anyone have any experience with the Phoenix Friction clutch? The only thing I am little iffy on with them is that their ad says they source from various suppliers, but I think with this HD version more of it is their own stuff.
 
The centerforce pressure plate is not the weighted version of hot rods (at least for the '97). Its nothing special. That is what they told me a couple of yrs ago so do call them before you order one.

Consider Zoom and Luk Gold.

I am guessing / thinking you have a clutch fork. I've heard its very important to replace the fork and ball/stud at time of clutch replacement. I had a '78 that I did not replace the fork and ball and boy was that clutch hard to press (actually deflected the body and cab up it was all mechanical linkages).
 
valiar clutches are nice also with valiar and south bend you can get a kit with a new fly wheel included alot of cummins guys use valiar and that says the can take some abuse
 
usually pedal pressure is from the style of pressure plate. generally speaking a diaphram style has less pedal effort and the 3 finger borg and beck style require more effort. both will get firmer in a performance application as they increase spring pressure.

the fly weights in the CF are to increase holding power as rpm increases
 
schiker, it seems in the picture there are weights but it could just be a file photo too. I can find Zoom clutches but I am having a hard time finding Luk clutches, it seems like their stuff is mixed in with other peoples kits, can someone point me in the direction of where to find a full luk gold set?

Also schiker, I have a new fork, but could not find a new pivot ball when I did the clutch before, where can I get one? (I contacted the local dealer and they never got back to me then) I ended up making one from the old one and a universal pivot, probably not the best.

I will take a look at valair john, aren't they kind of expensive too?

I agree with you ak thats kind of what i was thinking, I think the pressure plate is just as important. Thanks guys keep the experiences coming! I have some more shopping to do now.
 
my bad valair does not seem to make them for our trucks. there chearer than a south bend when i was looking for my cummins. if its just your dd and occasional towing check out your local napa $240 with solid fly wheel. i've had good luck with them. i know organic material is smooter engagement and its like oem clutch materail. i had a ceramic south bend performance clutch in my cummins it had alot of pedal pressure and it was grabby. but the clamping force was more due to the torque. whatever route you go organic clutch material and a spring hub clutch will give smooth engagement.
 
You are right John I looked at Valair and they only offer clutches for the ZF6. I couldn't seem to find the clutch kit on napa for 240, their solid flywheel one was 215 and only one grade. They had a Ram clutch for a 92 but it was not a sprung hub disk so I am assuming it was for DMF. I am a little scared of buying from a chain store again due to my bad luck with this advance clutch, although napa is often much better with these sorts of things since they have their own brand.

I will definitely make sure I get organic no matter which way I go. Its a matter of whether or not I want any ceramic in there. As of this point I am still between the Phoenix Friction and the Centerforce.
 
Part Number: NCF 1104163
Product Line: NAPA Clutch and Flywheel
IMPORTANT INFO: Solid Flywheel Option

this is from there website.
as for Phoenix Friction and the Centerforce. i have not had any experince with these brands
 
GM guy recommended Blumenthals transmissions in Okalahoma (comes up with google search) as a good source for parts. I have never done business with them but probably will one day.

I can't remember where I bought my clutch, pp, and flywheel. Might have been dial a clutch.

I take internet pictures of parts with a grain of salt especially for 6.5 and older parts. Probably have to call some places for confirmation as the DMF is just about assumed to be switched I think ???? And that makes many catalogs and pictures screwy.

Seems I had to shop around for the slave cylinder and throw out bearing. I ended up getting one at Advanced made by Raybestos. Ahhh anymore its - mix and match where I buy parts from and compare them in hand.
 
i have put the napa clutches in many gas trucks and cars. mailny fords actually kinda funny. anyway the pedal felt normal and smooth engagement
 
schiker said:
Seems I had to shop around for the slave cylinder and throw out bearing. I ended up getting one at Advanced made by Raybestos. Ahhh anymore its - mix and match where I buy parts from and compare them in hand.
Click to expand...

Let me rephrase that kinda. It wasn't hard to find I just did not like the way the parts looked. I liked the way the Raybestos slave cylinder looked best.
 
I know what you mean schiker, I like the slave from Advance too, although the one from napa is nice as well. The one from napa is plastic, while the one from advance is metal. Same deal with the master, although the plastic one from napa is made in the usa while the metal one from Advance I don't know, I would guess not here.

Turns out Thanksgiving break is a week earlier than I thought (real attentive I know) so I need to get this stuff ordered asap. Break starts a week from tomorrow. I think I am gonna call Blumenthals and price out a rebuild kit for the NV and compare to the ones on ebay.

Still not decided on the clutch yet. The centerforce looks nice (ak, is your centerforce experience behind a 6.5?) but its $70 more than the PF. The PF comes with the throwout bearing and the pilot bushing, whereas the CF does not. And then there is the napa clutch.
 
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