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6.5 wont start new to the diesel world

S

spoolnhaulin

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hey guys my first day on the site seems pretty informative ! anyway i got a 94 electronic 6.5 intercooled about 12psi boost nv4500 14bolt fsd cooler 3rd gen solenoid factory intake delete and so on and the thing wont start i have 12V at the glow plugs ( glow plugs themselves ohmd out within spec) fuel to the db4 but no fuel at the injectors i figure my fsd is pooched but since its a 3rd gen solenoid with a cooler it seems unusual im new to the whole diesel thing im coming from 80s toyota mini trucks with 4 banger gassers lol basically what im asking is what controls fuel flow from the pump to the injectors 2 factors i have considdered are the pmd and ( for lack of better words) the silver cylindrical dealy mounted behind the pmd on the injection pump themselvs im getting 12v to the fsd but with the ignition on im only getting 5 volts to the silver cylindrical thing ( maybe its a fuel pressure booster?) my guess is it akes the psi the fuel pump puts out bumps it up to more psi ? anyway bottom line i have fuel coming into the db4 but none at the injectors what could be wrong like i say i figure the fsd or the cylindrical thing anyone who can shed some light on this would help out alot thanks guys

-simon
 
First welcome to TTS!

Where is the fsd mounted? If it's on the intake it is the worst place for it. The cylindrical thing if it's on the right front of the IP is the fuel shut off solenoid (fsos). There should be 12 volts to it. Check the fsos and ecm fuses and clean up the fuse spades. On 95 and up they are in an under hood fuse box, I'm not sure about the 94.
 
Howdy spool hauler, welcome to the site have a pass through our FAQ area http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/forumdisplay.php?218-6.2-and-6.5-Technical-Reference-Library

Also when you get a moment there is a button in the tool bar called user CP which will allow you to permanently list in your signature the configuration of your ride, which aids in troubleshooting.

As NVW asked where is your FSD remoted, also be sure to go through the grounds sticky thread poor gnds also can cause your issue. On these "fly by wire" new vehicles more than just the battery gnd has to be clean.
 
Since you say you got 12V at the glow plugs I assume the glow cycle is working, or do you have an override? When you turn key to on do you get the glow cycle and the SES light? If not you would need to look at the ECM fuse under the steering wheel.

If you dont have 12V across the fuel/engine shutoff solenoid on top of the IP then that is of concern. It gets power from the same place that the PMD does, from the FSOL fuse under the steering wheel. You can try removing the plunger from the solenoid, using a snap ring pliers to remove the ring then it will slide right out so it cannot keep the fuel from getting injected. The IP is electronic, so when you turn ignition off it stops injecting.
 
6.5td wont start drivin me nuts ! new to diesels

ok guys after doing the nessecary things to get 12v to my fsos i bled my injector lines and the thing wont start are there some other factors that im missing theres fuel to the injectors theres compression theres 12v to my shut off solenoid and to my fsd ( auxillary mounted with cooler ) WTF lol im baffled and it driving me insane is there something im missing? any help is greatly appreiated thanks guys
 
Hi spoon; I moved your new post into this existing thread because it's still the same problem...

First, please fill out your signature as Turbine Doc asked; that lets your list of accessories/modifications follow you around, so people know what has been done to your truck. In the case of the (above) post being on its own, without the information in teh (first) post, nobody has any idea what you're talking about.

Now... did the truck run recently? What changed? Did it suddenly just quit, and THEN you changed the PMD and started playing with electrical issues, or is the PMD an existing one that was there while things were running?

What do you mean in post #1 "3rd gen factory intake delete"?

It might be helpful for you to copy our Diagnostic Checklist into a new post and fill it out, so we can 'see and hear' your truck. Checking all those things methodically, rather than randomly (which is what's gonna happen if you just let us all guess about your problem with incomplete information) will just take longer.
 
Problem: Explain your problem in concise language (ie: Cranks but won’t fire). ___________cranks but wont fire_________________

Demographics: tell us about your truck and your ambient conditions:

- Year: 1994______
- Truck model and class (ie: c2500) ____c3500_____
- Automatic or Standard _____standard_____
- Mileage: (indicate miles or km) __330,000 km _______
- Replaced parts and mods (IP, PMD, chip/PCM, TM, injectors etc) __remote fsd (3rd gen solenoid) with cooler, intercooler, glow plug override, lift pump prime switch, high idle kit factory intake delete
- Model: ‘S’ or ‘F’ engine, NA or Turbo, EGR? turbo with egr not sure the engine code new to these trucks ______________
- Ambient outside temp: (indicate *C or *F) ___just above freezing 3 or 4 celcius_______
- What fuel are you using? (#1 Diesel, #2 Diesel, Bio, VO, WVO, etc) _not sure whatever is at the pumps in ontario canada ________
- What fuel additives are you using? _____kleen flo anti gel______
- Where are you located? __________ontario canada___

General maintenance: inspect and evaluate the condition of each. When were they last changed?
- Air filter _within 2 months ________
- Fuel filter within 3 months_________
- CDR Valve? _________
- Coolant – last flushed/replaced at _only owned the truck for 4 months____________
- Oil – synthetic/regular, changed at _regular 5k intervals__________
- Batteries – state of charge, (matched set) replaced at __12.5 volts band new 4 days ago___________
- Battery cables and grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened): _4 days ago_____________
- Glow Plugs - how many miles on them? _unknown but ohm out within spec and look good________ What type? ___bosch 12v fast glow__________
- Injectors - last changed at ___________unknown but no excessive black smoke or poor fuel economy____


History: (Describe how the problem first appeared.)
- What were you doing when it happened? _came out in the morning and wouldnt fire _____________
- How was the truck running fine before this problem appeared? ___truck ran fine previous night __________
- Has this problem ever happened before? _not in the 4 or 5 months i have owned it ______________________
- Describe any related factors that might be part of the problem. ___fsos only had 5 volts cleaned up fuses and it has 12v now ___________
- Have you checked for DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)? (Y.N) no____ And? ________


Diagnostics:

1] Starting:
1a] Does the engine start? __no_______
1b] Does the engine crank over? _yes_______
1c] Are your batteries fully charged? not anymore_________
1d] Have you removed, cleaned, and tightened all battery connections? ___yes_____
1e] Does your Wait to Start light come on for a time? How long? _no just glow plug light________
1f] Does your glow plug light come on? ______yes___ For how long? __5 or 7 seconds_______
1g] Do you see smoke from the exhaust while cranking? What color? ____greyish smoke more at first less and less as i cranked more ( probly cause of fsos) now that fsos has 12v there is still a tiny bit of greyish black smoke ____
1h] Does the Service Engine Light Glow during Start/bulb check? ___yes alwys shuts off after it fires (before problem)_____

2] Fuel Issues (if not running):
2a] Can you hear your lift pump working? __yes__________
2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ? __yes_______
2c] Loosen the inlet line from the IP – is fuel coming out (Lift Pump on)? _yes__________
2d] Loosen an injector line and crank the engine - does fuel come out? __yes tiny spurts (not sure how much should be coming out ?)_______
2e] Do you hear a vacuum (hiss) when you remove the fuel cap? ______not normally but a theres a leak in the top of the tank just above halfway_____

3] PMD / IP Issues
3a] Location of PMD (on pump, on intake, remote mounted) _____on intake with fsd cooler______
3b] Condition of Extension harness (if used) Vendor or Homemade? __homemade but proper connections _______
3c] Condition of grounds / ground wires to IP / PMD. Check Harness. _ok________
3d] PMD Make: __stanadyne (3rd gen) _________
3e] PMD Age: _few years old always been cooled with fsd cooler___________

4] Stalling Issues
4a] Do you experience stalling only when hot? ____no________
4b] Does it stall under particular circumstances? (ie hit bump, or on accel) ___no___
4c] Does pouring cool water over the IP seem to help with restarting? _____no____
4d] Is stalling momentary (engine recovers)? ____no_____
4e] Does SES light come on when engine hiccups? ____no_____
4f] Does cruise control quit working when engine hiccups? _no__________
4g] Does re-starting seem to reset engine, restoring cruise and power? __no_______
4h] Changes to dash lights or instruments during stalling events? _______no____

5] Running Issues
5a] On cold start, does upper rad hose get hard before engine warms up? __never checked_____
5b] Any bubbles or oil film in coolant overflow tank? ___no____
5c] Any white slime on oil surfaces (dipstick, CDR, oil Fill cap)? ___nope_______
5d] Excessive white smoke from exhaust on cold start? _a bit not alot________
5e] Excessive black smoke from exhaust under hard acceleration? barely any (stock ecm and airflow improvements)__________

6] Performance Issues
6a] Do you have gauges (boost, EGT) ? ___nope thats next though________
6b] Maximum boost under load? __previous owner says about 12 psi not sure for myself though__________
6c] Have you added a performance PCM (reflash) or Chip? ___no___________
6d] Have you changed exhaust / downpipe / crossover? ___not yet_____________
6e] Wastegate – mechanical or vacuum (OEM)? _not sure mounted on a spring im guessing mechanical_____________

7] Temperature-related Issues:
7a] Single or dual thermostats? ___dual_________
7b] Have you replaced them lately? Manufacturer of replacements? _not recently________
7c] Have you pulled and cleaned Radiator and coolers lately? __no__________
7d] Have you replaced the fan clutch? Manufacturer of replacement? ___no_____
7e] (winter) Have you tested your antifreeze? Good to what temp? _no_________
7f] (winter) Are you using a winter grille cover? __will be soon_________

List and describe any other factors which are not addressed in this checklist. We can’t see, hear, smell, or touch your truck, so the more descriptive information you can give, the more likely it is that somebody can assist you.

__usually coughs out black/blue smoke mostly black minimal blue but not starting issue was so abrupt assuming there is sufficient compresion _______________________________
 
i have fuel at the injectors and power to my glow plugs why isnt this thinkg starting any idea how much fuel should be at the injectors ? right now its probly like 2 or3 drops per cylinder per compression stroke with the injector lines off should there be forcefull squirts while cranking the engine over ? also is it safe with a diesel to try to bump start it ?
 
Thanks, spoonhauler! That gives us a much better look at your rig!

A few things come immediately to mind..

FIRST - do NOT use ether or starting fluid, no matter how tempted you get!

NEXT - push-starting these things is doable, but not recommended... let's try to get it going properly, first. Us Canucks know lots about starting these things in the cold.

- charge your batteries fully... The engine has to crank over fast enough to start (200 rpm, iirc), and low batts are a huge problem for us.
- it's pretty cold out, especially if your glowplugs aren't working properly (I'll go there, next). Have you been using the block heater? Make sure you plug it in for a few hrs before trying to start it again (with fresh battery charge!).

You have smoke when you first try to start, which tells me you have fuel, but it dies off as it cranks, which will happen if it's cold enough or if it isn't developing enough compression (slow cranking is an issue). Block heater helps, also you can stick your wife's hairdryer into the air intake for a little while (works amazingly well... but don't get caught!!!) to heat up the air (which is what the glow plugs do, if they're working properly.

Finally, having voltage at the glowplugs isn't enough... you have to have current and have good-working plugs. You can pull out a few of the driver's side plugs and test them by putting them in a vise, hooking 12v to them. They should glow cherry-red to white along half of the plug. You might also check and clean the connections in your over-ride system.

Do all of the glow-plug checking while your batteries are charging.

Let us know how it goes... I'll check back.

Jim
 
The injector lines just need to be cracked loose when testing for fuel. You may have some air in the lines.

I would also mount the fsd in the bumper nostrils, not many people get 3 years out of one mounted on the intake. I got 5 months.
 
Have you tried plugging the block heater in , in case glos need some help. Also there is a coolant temp sensor (cts) on coolant crossover that if unplugged (temporarily) will give longer glo time .
Note you have new batteries but no longer charged up . Batteries need to be well charged & lots of starter speed.
If compression not up to par (lots of kms) it could add to starting difficulties ,I would think along with cooler weather. Just some random thoughts.
 
thanks so much guys i cant believe all the people willing to help me out here its awesome should my fsos be clicking when i turn my ignition on? something is telling me its still some how restricting myfuel flow i know im new to diesels but shouldnt fuel spray out with alot of pressure when i turn it over with the injectors cracked ? what are the determining factors in fuel pressure with a db4 electronic pump?
 
fuel will only dribble while cranking. It won't build pressure until there's a restriction ie the injector. The more heat you can throw at that cold piece of iron the easier it is to start. Working glows are a must. Might even use a torpedo heater.
 
spoolnhaulin said:
thanks so much guys i cant believe all the people willing to help me out here its awesome should my fsos be clicking when i turn my ignition on? something is telling me its still some how restricting myfuel flow i know im new to diesels but shouldnt fuel spray out with alot of pressure when i turn it over with the injectors cracked ? what are the determining factors in fuel pressure with a db4 electronic pump?
Click to expand...

You will hear the fsos when the key is turned on.
 
If you have fuel coming out the lines then the PMD is doing something and the ESO solenoid is allowing fuel to pass. The injection pump builds pressure with RPMs, and needs a restriction for that as AK said. The electronic IP you have is a DS4. If you think the ESO is a problem, don't hestitate to unscrew it off the IP, and remove the plunger out of it, its pretty simple, but I doubt now that is the problem.

5 or 7 seconds is not enough glow time. You need like 15 seconds at least. Go unplug the Coolant Temp Sensor on the T-Stat housing Xover, AND the Intake Air Temp Sensor on top of the upper intake. That will get you maximum glow time and cold advance.

With a 1994 C3500 you may have a DS4-5068 IP, which was an oddball high output, and all the PCM programming I have seen for them have terrible timing curves, way too low advance, especially for the cold.

You mentioned hole in the fuel tank, if its rusted hole, then the lines coming out are also probably rusted through, which is infamous for air intrusion that cause issues like this. Thats because it is a vacuum location with the Lift Pump sucking fuel from the tank.

Check your codes by jumpering pins A and B on the OBD port and turning the ignition on. The SES light will flash any codes. You just have to know how to count the flashes.
 
Something does not make any sense.

2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ? __yes_______

How would you know this if you cannot get the truck started? The steady flow is needed after the truck is started not just cranking.
If no steady flow after the truck starts, then the OPS is bad because OPS controls the LP when the engine run.
Since you cannot even get it to run, I suspect, OPS may be bad.

Now, how do you test. Try to put 12V direct source to the LP (under the driver on the frame). See if you can crank and actually starts.
If you do, then OPS is bad.

Report back to us.

As mentioned above, check all your electrical: batteries, cables, alternator, starter and all connections.
Also, new parts do not mean they are working. So, new batteries do not mean that it will work, everything have to be tested at the point something is not right.
Good 2 days ago or 2 hours ago, does not mean it is still good when problem happens.
So never assume anything.
 
well you do not need the OPS to work to get the truck started. While cranking it will get powered by the relay.

Although everyone with an OBD1 truck should do the OPS relay modification, because they all fail and often.

Although the step may be intended to be checked while running to say that the OPS and LP are working, you can get the flow just by powering the LP
 
ok so i have fuel to the injectors and alot of whitesmoke while cranking i just bled my injectors but i think im gonna have to again which brings me to my next question what glow plugs tend to work best in these trucks? i have heard bosch duraterms and champion ch77 ( renamed 177) are good plugs any tips? thanks !
 
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