6.5 stalling / hard start

[pitsingerk]

I was at another site, and after a couple days, I got no help. I was told this was the sight to use, I'm getting desperate here. Here is what I posted on the other site

I've read through many older posts and I see problems common to mine but not exactly what it's doing. Keep in mind that I'm not new to diesels (15 year ford guy), just new to the 6.5L. Truck is 1997 3/4 ton Suburban. Here are the issues

1. truck starts hard when cold, sometimes starting then imediately stalling, but starts right back up again. One instance it took 8-9 tries to get it going. Checked glow plugs, seem ok, still need to check controler. Truck starts fine when hot
2. truck shudders at approx. 50mph, sort of like it's running out of fuel. Also shudders if hitting excessive bumps/potholes
3. when removing the gas cap, I get a giant rush of air. I've looked under the truck before taking off the cap and the filler hose is almost sucked flat. (will replace cap with vented cap, previous owner had replaced with a locking cap)
4. I was told that the fuel shutoff solenoid needed replaced by the previous owner, not sure if I trust his info. Explained pouring water on solenoid to start truck.
5. Cruise control worked on Saturday when I picked it up, but now doesn’t???
6. After going through the check list, I’m leaning towards the PMD.

Below is the check list filled out.

1. Does the engine crank, or 'turn over'? yes
1a. Does the engine start and run?
yes, when warm, starts/stalls/starts/stalls when cold

1b. Do you have a Wait To Start Light & the amount of time (seconds) lit. yes 8-10 seconds

1c. Ambient Condition (temperature outside indicate F or C) ____75°f
1d. Engine Cranking speed (if you have an accurate tachometer). 0??
1e. Are you experiencing stalling? yes
1f. If Stalling, describe (upon startup only, down the road, hit a bump etc) upon cold start, down the road,
1g. If Stalling, do you notice loss of dash or instruments? no, but will watch closer next time
-note if experiencing stalling,you must indicate PMD location in #24.

1h. Check turbo inlet and air filter for obstructions. Cone filters have lost disk and stopped air to turbo. clear
1i. In a no-hot start, pour a bottle of room-temp water on the injection pump. Does it start now? I was told this is why I need a new fuel shutoff solenoid, but this has not happed to me yet.
1.1 Lift pump test - describe results got fuel out of hose and filter cap
2. Service Engine Light while running?- on/off/intermittent never seen it
2a. Service Engine light does glow during start/cranking/bulb check: Yes/No yes
3. Model year 1997
3a. Odometer reading (indicate if in miles or km) 223k miles
3b. Miles on major engine components if been replaced (example Injection pump)
I was told pump and injectors replace, not sure of mileage
3c. Indicate the model number on the Injection pump (starts DS4 or DB2......)
Can not see a number, not sure where to look
4. Have you scanned for engine codes? (varies by pre/post 96) yes/no no
5. List exact results on engine codes:
6. Air Filter condition (visual check) new
7. Fuel filter condition (freshly changed/condition unknown/mileage since changed) new within last 4-500 miles
8. Condition of Battery terminal connections (removed, cleaned and tightened) cleaned
8a. Known condition and age of the batteries. One battery looks new, other older
8b. Are batteries of differing age or are they a matched set? Not matched, one older
8c. Condition of Major Grounds. (same drill as batt - removed, cleaned, retightened) removed and cleaned what I could find, had to replace ground to frame, it was broken
9. Upon cold start, does the radiator hose get hard quickly? Yes/no no
10. Upon cold start, do you have excessive white smoke? Yes/no no
11. Do you have excessive cranking time before the engine starts? yes when cold
12. Have you used the block heater, and does this effect engine starting?(only try for starting problems) have not
13. During hard acceleration, do you have excessive black smoke? Yes/no some, not excessive
14. Do you have any unusual exhaust smoke issues? no
15. Turbo check out - pass/fail seem fine
16. Do you have an EGR on the engine? (An F or an S engine code 8th VIN digit) F
17. Indicate if you know if it’s a 1500, 2500, 2500HD, 3500, 3500HD. 2500
18. Indicate fuel that you are using: Bio-diesel, #2 Diesel, #1Diesel, SVO/WVO, other Standard fuel from gas stations
18a. If running a VO (Veggie Oil fuel) setup, indicate details of your conversion (homemade, or packaged system) n/a
19. Are you using any fuel additives? If so, please list. no
20. Please indicate geographic region you are in: (example: Texas or Canada) Ohio
21. Do you have any service history available that might pertain to the problem you are having? Not really,
22. Please indicate any modifications to the vehicle that might help us diagnose better. Pmd relocated to inner fender
23. Upon unscrewing the fuel cap, do you have a large vacuum formed in the tank? yes/no yes
24. Location of PMD/FSD? On the pump/remoted over intake/remoted out of engine bay (please specify placement specifically) relocated to inner fender
24a. If remote mounted, describe wiring harness (homemade or purchased from a vendor?) looks professional, not positive
24b. Indicate the location and condition of the FSD/IP grounding wire. Not sure were to look.
25. Are ALL glow plugs in proper working order as per this thread? yes

 

[ak diesel driver]

Try unplugging the ECT sensor in the tstat housing see if that makes a difference in cold starts. If the ECT unplugged makes it start easier then I would try a new sensor. They are relatively cheap. Also do the IP test with the engine fully warmed up slowly bring it to 2000 rpm and then slowly bring it back to idle. If there are any hiccups or flat spots or stumbles then that is a sign the IP is on it's way out. If the IP test passes then I would think that a new PMD is in order.

 

[625fireman]

If PMD is still on pump I would definetly suggest replacing/ moving it.

Where in OHio Are you??? I am in Trumbull County half way between Clev. & Young.

 

[knkreb]

Drive with fuel cap loose. May have a problem with leaks in fuel lines too (rusting and getting pin holes) It's probably a locking GAS cap, not a diesel cap... different animal.

Scanning for engine codes would help too. Just because you don't have a service on, doesn't mean that code hasn't logged. That may be the reason why your cruise control isn't working.

Doubtful this early to say PMD. Save your money till you work your way through it.

Define: all glow plugs good. They may have a resistance value, but if the value is off a bit, the plug has degraded performance.

Start with the cheap stuff.

 

[pitsingerk]

Guys, I have to say I'm impressed with the quick help and I appreciate it very much.

Fireman, I'm in Garrettsville (Portage County), not far from you.

I finally got the truck started. I unplugged the sensor like you suggested AK and it didn't seem to make a difference. I had to hold the go pedal to the floor to get it start and hold it there until it stayed running. It seems to me like I may not be getting any fuel at cold start up. I'm buy myself, so it's hard to crank the engine and see if I'm getting fuel at the T fitting or filter. I did check the pump while running and did get fuel out of both.

The "gas" cap is just screwed in enough to keep it in there at the moment, I will be getting a new one today.

Is the LP supposed to keep running after I turn the key back to the off position? This doesn't seem right.

I did run the scanner on the truck last night. The scanner stated that these codes were stored because these parts were replaced and the codes were never cleared. Codes are:

P0216 - Injection timing control circuit
P0251 - Inject pump a rotor / cam malfunction
P0370 - Timing ref high res sig a malfunction

 

[pitsingerk]

forgot to mention that I did clear the codes so that I can run the scanner again tonight to see if they come back.

PMD has been moved to the fender well with cooler.

 

[knkreb]

If during that engine running cycle, the computer pops another code, cruise will be disabled. Next key start, cruise will return until next code event.

Improper fuel flow, bubbles in fuel etc will throw the IP in fits and give you codes. Unless everything is running properly, I would not diagnose as pump failure until all other things are exhausted.

The cool water trick is on for head problems within the IP itself. Popular problem on DB2 mechanical pumps, not as much so with electronic DS4 pumps. Once in a rare case... but very popular with DB2's.

Some folks read just enough to be dangerous, and post as an expert. I'm not an expert... but there are some finer details to check into before throwing around advice on the internet, as in the case in other forums. You're in good hands.

Could be summed up with the cap......... let's hope.

 

[JiFaire]

Just taking my first look here, pitsingerk. I have a few thoughts:

- try cold-start with the block-heater plugged in... Your symptoms would suggest a few dead glow plugs and/or controller issues. Do you get shite exhaust when the truck first starts cold?

- those codes can be symptomatic of a failing PMD. They're expensive though, so let's leave that until last. Moving a PMD once it's dying is an iffy proposition, at best. Once the damage is done, you most often can't resurrect them. Can you take a pic and post it (of your PMD/cooler assembly)? Some are warrantied, some are better than others. We might recognize it.

- Aces was right - pouring water on the IP/PMD will sometimes get a stalled truck to start - but that isn't an FSO issue... with an electronic IP, the problem again points to PMD. (FYI - The manual (DB2) IP's tended to get warped heads in the early years, and pouring water on them would often get them to start). You can remove the FSO solenoid and test it to make sure it's working - easy job. It's the silver cylindrical thing on the IP with 1 wire coming off it.

- Good job on the checklist.

 

[guybb3]

No matter what else, with the fuel fill sucking flat, the cap has to go. It's at least part of the problem.

 

[buddy]

The Lift Pump should continue to run after you shut down, that would say your Oil Pressure Switch/Sender (OPS) is operating until oil pressure bleeds out. I would say up to 10 seconds is normal, sometime longer if its cold out and you just started it for a few seconds and cold oil is in the sender.

If the PO thought the Fuel shutoff solenoid/Engine shutoff solenoid was bad, try taking it off and removing the plunger with a snap ring pliers and putting it back in. If that doesnt help just put the plunger back in it. Its like a 10 minute job. Its that clinder on top of the IP.

You need to check Lift pump pressure, is the fuel filter old or can you see any leaks around it, any fuel puddles under it?

 

[pitsingerk]

just ran the scanner on the truck, all three codes are back. These are my major issues still

Problem 1) After the bs time I had getting it started this morning I have to do something quickly about the cold starts. It's annoying when this happens at home, but it's quit embarassing when it happens at work and I have to rev the piss out of it to keep it running. I have the truck plugged in for tonight to see how it reacts in the morning when I go to work. I'll keep you posted on that one. If I do need to replace the glow plugs and/or controller, is there better items to get than the Advance / Autozone parts. Should I be looking to a specialty shop for these?

Problem 2. The shuddering/sputtering at speed. I've determined that that the RPM's when this happens is approx. 1500 each time. Like I said in an earlier post, I did the 2000 RPM test and found no sputtering or anything out of the ordinary. But when I pulled out of the driveway it imediatly starting acting up. Fuel cap was not turned in for this. I'm really confused on this one.

Problem 3 fuel cap, bought a new one from Napa, said it was for the deisel, still get the rush of air, some off to the garage to drill a hole.

Hopefully I'm using the right terminology to describe these problems. Thanks again everyone for your help

 

[knkreb]

Once it codes, it goes into backup timing. You'll notice your cruise will not work. The service engine won't light until next key cycle sometimes.

My first IP would sputter and do all sorts of stupid stuff at higher RPM's. If the computer is guessing at timing because it thinks it's inputs are bad data, it's like throwing a dart blindfolded compared to high resolution timing when present.

Don't drill hole in new cap. You should have a small whisper of vacuum, but not suck your tank inside out.

 

[buddy]

try unplugging the Optical Sensor (OS) and starting it. Its the stubby black connector on the top of the IP. Youll still get those codes, but it might start easier. Otherwise maybe the previous owner meant it needed a new Fuel Solenoid, which is an internal component of the IP.

It could also be a timing related, if someone slapped in a new IP without setting the timing correctly. Look up the Key On Key Off procedure for TDCO relearn. If after the procedure you set yourself a TDCO error code you know the timing is off. Do you have a scanner that can read the timing on the 6.5?

 

[pitsingerk]

I will check my scanner to see if I can read the timing. It's a high end Mac scanner that I borrowed from my buddy, about all I can do with my limited knowledge of the thing is read my codes. I'll have to get him involved.

New update this morning. I plugged the truck in overnight, damn thing started right up this morning, ran with out any issues on the way in to work, approx. 15 miles. I believe I'm going to check everything that has to do with the glow plugs this afternoon.

I did drill a hole in the gas cap last night. The cap that was sold to me as a "diesel" cap still was creating a huge vacuum. I took the unit appart last night, removed the spring, and was still not satisfied it would vent so I drilled a hole in it too. Maybe this is the reason it ran good today, I'm not sure.

 

[pitsingerk]

alright guys, I'm a dumb A$$. I thought the battery in the truck was brand new, it looked brand new, no dirt, no grime, nothing. Come to find out after looking at the date on the battery, it's from 2004! I did a check with the battery tester and one battery is shot, and the other is borderline. I believe this has everything to do with my hard starts. The starter kicks over like it should, but I don't believe the batteries have enough to run the glow plugs sufficiently. Correct me if I'm wrong. Plus would this have something to do with the other problems I'm having.

 

[JMJNet]

Batteries will definitely cause hard starting. One bad one is not good, the starter needs both to start.

Replace both at the same time.

 

[JiFaire]

Good catch on the battery, pitsingerk... these babies are Electronically injected, and they were sort of pioneering in that, so they are pretty finicky compared to today's models.

Bad batteries, bad cables, bad grounds, electrical interference, dying alternators... any and all of these things can raise bloody hell under the hood for us.

Bad fuel, bad hoses, bad filters, LP issues probably make up 90% of what's left. Most of the time the problem is little things, which are cheaper to fix, but harder to find. So we end up checking them all.

Before you jump into expensive stuff like Injection pumps, make sure the little, cheap stuff is all done. Odds are that fixing that fuel cap and battery will solve most of your problems. Let us know what happens next, and we'll help you narrow it down some more.

PS - I'd still like to see a picture of that PMD relocation; something seems odd about that one.

 

[fonecop1]

Low batteries and bad glow plugs make for very hard starts. Do you know if the glow plugs have been replaced? The reason I would suspect glow plugs in addition to the batteries is because it did better when it was plugged in. I would replace the batteries and if you are uncertain about the glows I would put in new ones. I don't know where you live but if it's hard to start now wait till winter.

 

[TomMac95]

The 6.5L starts Very Readily down to well below freezing if the glow plugs work(and fuel injection pump!) , and there's any compression. Check the plugs and wiring/connectors. Glow plugs -- first check for hard coldstarts.
-- If you find Voltage at the plugs , that says the controller is providing power. A good test is to measure the current drawn by each glowplug in turn . They have a very high initial current draw , then moderate as the internal resistance element heats up (i think they should read 8-18 amps , but i haven't tested these) . A meter with a 20Amp range is reported adequate.

The tank should hiss , but Not flatten the hose... .

The fact that it starts Well and Runs when the engine is Warm suggests the LP is OK. [Hot Start...Stall typical of failed LP].

The fact that it hiccups/stalls over the road @ 55mph is very consistent with fuel starvation . Sometimes this will point to the FSD/PMD , but it usually suggests that the fuel filter is Clogged. I've never suffered a failed PMD/FSD , but i had the 'hiccup' from a clogged filter three times {in my 30kMi experience}.

As KnKreb notes , be methodical and step-wise in approach.

A bad load of fuel , debris accumulating in the tank (clogging pickup 'sock') , clogged fuel filter , or bad electric connections , can all cause fuel starvation. The fuel pickup tubes sometimes develop (from corrosion) pinholes.... The OEM fuel Heater/Separator/Filters incorporate a small cylindrical nylon filter screen which can disappear when changing (filtration) elements ... allowing debris into the expensive high pressure FuelInjectionPump. Many add redundant filtration.

I bought a truck with roadsalt rust ... and the Best thing i did was replace the fuel Tank+Sender assy , And Fuel Lines , and the along-frame-rail-brake-lines in one maintenance task. (the Lines were all corroded , there was a pile of sand on the tank nose....)

- T m

 

[pitsingerk]

Update: Put 2 new Interstate Batteries in the Burban and gutted and drilled the "gas" cap. Starts without issues now, no missing going down the road. Everything seems fine now. I still need to take the picture of the PMD for you guys, but I haven't been home in the daylight for a few days now. Will get to that as soon as I get a chance. Also, for all you guys in NE Ohio, Interstate Batteries in Mentor has blems for $35.00 ea. $70 +tax for a set of new batteries are the way to go. Thanks again for all your advice and help.