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6.5 Cooling system thoughts

FellowTraveler

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Later GMT400 w/6.5 diesel cooling system design, modifications and FACTS.

GM never put heater hose on/off valves on this configuration however a heater hose restrictor is installed at the thermostat housing so coolant always flows through both heater cores then to cool side of radiator spilling onto internal transmission cooler.

While here is much debate about installing an on/off valve in the heater hose circuit the GM C/K (GMT400) up fitter manual clearly states when there is a heater delete or on/off valve installed in heater hose the heater port coolant flow must still be routed to the radiator by a loop circuit or in the case of an on/off valve via a tee fitting or damage would occur to engine/transmission there is no further explanation.

Upon examination of the cooling circuit I have found that the heater hose is also the ‘steam vent line’ on the 6.5 diesel allowing steam to escape through the heater circuit into the cool side of radiator/accumulator where it will eventually vent to atmosphere. Steam is always created in a 6.5 from cavitation around valves and cylinder walls when ethaline glycol & water (EGW) coolant is used so closing off that vent will cause other problems. GM knew of this engine damaging steaming from cavitation early on and even incorporated steam vents in the LS series engines “to vent the engine damaging steam caused by cavitation.”

The bypass at the dual thermostat housing to water pump is full flow no restrictors two types of thermostats can be used the conventional hi flow and a drilled full units.

The conventional hi-flow thermostats are used in two configurations first is as equipped by factory and second is w/restrictor in the bypass between the thermostat housing and water pump.

The full flow thermostat has three 3/8” holes drilled into its body x 2 = +- the flow of the bypass between the thermostat housing and water pump so completely blocking off bypass flow between thermostat housing and water pump is now possible so most of the coolant flows through the radiator however the heater hose steam vent must remain when using EGW and with any waterless coolant because of any condensation build up that may occur in the waterless coolant which will be steamed out shortly after warmup and it needs to vent.

NOTE: My tests using refractometer show water entering into waterless coolant from condensation is not a worry the amount water egress is never an issue and it will quickly boil/steam off after engine warmup and vent as it should providing the factory heater hose steam venting is intact. In fact large amounts of water in EVANS coolant can be removed by removing the coolant from the cooling system and boiling off water via a big pot and stove.
 
You might want to correct your info as SOME 6.5's DID have a heater control valve installed in them. I didn't believe it either, but a member here posted pics of his 96 FACTORY SUBURBAN with one installed. The A/C control head has a circuit in it to control one as well. The reason for the heater flow needing to be looped back to the radiator is for trans temp control. The DURAMAX doesn't have this, and they can have issues on long downhill grades with trans temps going up due to low airflow across the external cooler, the engine temps drop which stops coolant flow, and thus there is not enough trans cooling and temps soar.
 
You might want to correct your info as SOME 6.5's DID have a heater control valve installed in them. I didn't believe it either, but a member here posted pics of his 96 FACTORY SUBURBAN with one installed. The A/C control head has a circuit in it to control one as well. The reason for the heater flow needing to be looped back to the radiator is for trans temp control. The DURAMAX doesn't have this, and they can have issues on long downhill grades with trans temps going up due to low airflow across the external cooler, the engine temps drop which stops coolant flow, and thus there is not enough trans cooling and temps soar.

As always FERM your full of interesting facts and corrections are necessary and appreciated always, any idea how they looped the coolant back to the radiator from heater circuit and if the radiator was equipped w/cap and had the steam/vent ports like the newer 6.5td did?

I suspect I need to find out if it's just the 99 and newer 6.5td that has the steam/venting ports in radiators if the older 6.5's had no vent that could be a contributing factor excessive cavitation.
 
It is poorly understood and taken for granted even by engineers the amount of coolant that boils water off and looks like a soda fizzing going into the hot side of the radiator from the engine. Of course that water needs to fall below the boiling point of water under the cap pressure, not the mix boiling point - because boiling distilled the water out of the antifreeze.

I don't think you mean "Cavitation" in it's true meaning of 'collapse of bubbles and erosion of metal parts / pump vibration and loss of flow due to boiling in the pumped fluid around the impeller and inlet'. Rather I read it's use above as 'the boiling and steam creation in the engine that must be returned to the radiator not trapped in the engine'.

Does this apply to the single thermostat housings with the built in steam vent on the t-stat?

I run a heater blocking valve and found the last heater core rotted clean out in 2 years. I have an external air to oil trans cooler so damage isn't going to happen. It could contribute to poor AC performance if the air to oil cooler runs hotter due to no heater core return flow.

Edit: Blocking valve is not the same thing as a heater control valve with 4 connections. Heater control valves "bypass" the heater and keep the flow to the radiator, but, no flow to the heater core. A blocking valve like I run simply stops the flow period and is the OP's point/warning. My 1995 350 gas Yukon had a bypass valve.

Steam vents in the LS series engines should have been in all 4 corners of the heads instead of just the bare minimum on the front engine heads. The vents go to another hose trapping air/steam in a high spot rather than direct to the top of the hot side of the radiator. UGH!!! :facepalm: Yeah, purging these systems after repair is a PIA that results in runaway ECT if not done properly! The Thermostat location etc. all made this a requirement as they are no longer the highest spot on the engine. The changes do allow a steadier temperature in the engine with less cold shocks on t-stat opening.
 
I went back and checked the radiators in the GMT400 w/6.5td from 1994 they all had the vent port on the cold side of the radiator 1997 and newer have the 2 steam/vent ports at cold side of radiator w/one of them plumbed into accumulator.
 
It is poorly understood and taken for granted even by engineers the amount of coolant that boils water off and looks like a soda fizzing going into the hot side of the radiator from the engine. Of course that water needs to fall below the boiling point of water under the cap pressure, not the mix boiling point - because boiling distilled the water out of the antifreeze.

I don't think you mean "Cavitation" in it's true meaning of 'collapse of bubbles and erosion of metal parts / pump vibration and loss of flow due to boiling in the pumped fluid around the impeller and inlet'. Rather I read it's use above as 'the boiling and steam creation in the engine that must be returned to the radiator not trapped in the engine'.

Does this apply to the single thermostat housings with the built in steam vent on the t-stat?

I run a heater blocking valve and found the last heater core rotted clean out in 2 years. I have an external air to oil trans cooler so damage isn't going to happen. It could contribute to poor AC performance if the air to oil cooler runs hotter due to no heater core return flow.

Edit: Blocking valve is not the same thing as a heater control valve with 4 connections. Heater control valves "bypass" the heater and keep the flow to the radiator, but, no flow to the heater core. A blocking valve like I run simply stops the flow period and is the OP's point/warning. My 1995 350 gas Yukon had a bypass valve.

Steam vents in the LS series engines should have been in all 4 corners of the heads instead of just the bare minimum on the front engine heads. The vents go to another hose trapping air/steam in a high spot rather than direct to the top of the hot side of the radiator. UGH!!! :facepalm: Yeah, purging these systems after repair is a PIA that results in runaway ECT if not done properly! The Thermostat location etc. all made this a requirement as they are no longer the highest spot on the engine. The changes do allow a steadier temperature in the engine with less cold shocks on t-stat opening.

You are right on my use of cavitation as 'boiling/steam creation.'

IMHO venting to the radiator or accumulator is a must.

The single stat housing is perhaps the best choice as it blocks the bypass when it opens venting through the heater hose port to cold side of radiator is designed into it already however FERM mentioned on individual posted they had a factory heater hose shut off valve and the HVAC control head controlled it action and I'm thinking this configuration has to be redirected back to the upper cold side of radiator too.
 
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The radiators from 94+ were all the same for the 6.5's as far as I know. Up to 93 they had a cap at the radiator, but still used the heater core return line to the radiator. GM also kept this design on the gas engines of this era as one could use the radiator from a 454 and do away with the degas bottle if one so desired. As to the heater control valve, it installed in both lines, and looped the coolant back to the radiator bypassing the heater cores about 90% or so. Heres the valve they used when they had a heater control valve. It didn't completely block coolant flow, but stops about 90% of it. Also for a few years the hUMMER used one with an electric actuator on it like the blend doors used for those who no longer have the vacuum system. I have seriously considered adding one to mine to help when I'm towing and the ole DURAMAX is humming along at 210-220 and that heater core gets HOT.
15-5533_Primary__ra_p.jpg
 
The radiators from 94+ were all the same for the 6.5's as far as I know. Up to 93 they had a cap at the radiator, but still used the heater core return line to the radiator. GM also kept this design on the gas engines of this era as one could use the radiator from a 454 and do away with the degas bottle if one so desired. As to the heater control valve, it installed in both lines, and looped the coolant back to the radiator bypassing the heater cores about 90% or so. Heres the valve they used when they had a heater control valve. It didn't completely block coolant flow, but stops about 90% of it. Also for a few years the hUMMER used one with an electric actuator on it like the blend doors used for those who no longer have the vacuum system. I have seriously considered adding one to mine to help when I'm towing and the ole DURAMAX is humming along at 210-220 and that heater core gets HOT.
15-5533_Primary__ra_p.jpg
Great info!
 
The radiators from 94+ were all the same for the 6.5's as far as I know. Up to 93 they had a cap at the radiator, but still used the heater core return line to the radiator. GM also kept this design on the gas engines of this era as one could use the radiator from a 1993 6.5TD and do away with the degas bottle if one so desired. As to the heater control valve, it installed in both lines, and looped the coolant back to the radiator bypassing the heater cores about 90% or so. Heres the valve they used when they had a heater control valve. It didn't completely block coolant flow, but stops about 90% of it. Also for a few years the hUMMER used one with an electric actuator on it like the blend doors used for those who no longer have the vacuum system. I have seriously considered adding one to mine to help when I'm towing and the ole DURAMAX is humming along at 210-220 and that heater core gets HOT.

Fixed it for you. 454 radiators have around 1.5" inlet and outlet hoses. Diesels have like 2" - 2.5" hoses. So a gas radiator will not work in our diesel rigs. (Looking at 1993-1995 specifically.)

The heater control valve helps AC by not getting the HVAC box so hot. It makes a difference when you need that last little bit of cooling on a 105+ degree day.
 
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I just went and looked, and you're right, the gassers have a smaller hookup for the return line. Thought they were the same as the diesels.
 
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I am talking about t-stat outlet to radiator and inlet to water pump from radiator are both different sizes. Upper and lower radiator hoses...
 
Great Information!

When I looked into a cut-off valve, considered an electronic actuated valve with fail-open and did not know about the native option of the heater control valve or need to keep some flow through the heat exchanger loop. Decided to go KISS and use the manual control valve when I did the waterless conversion.

Over time, I learned to not fully close the manual valve anyway as there were frequent reasons to draw at least some heat (cool mornings, de-fogging, etc).
 
I'm seriously going to look into some sort of heater cutoff for mine. When towing it would sure be nice to have it as the DURAMAX runs a good bit warmer than a 6.5 does, and anything to help the A/C out is worthwhile to me.
 
[QUOTE="WarWagon, post: 503165, member: 4905"
Steam vents in the LS series engines should have been in all 4 corners of the heads instead of just the bare minimum on the front engine heads. The vents go to another hose trapping air/steam in a high spot rather than direct to the top of the hot side of the radiator. UGH!!! :facepalm: Yeah, purging these systems after repair is a PIA that results in runaway ECT if not done properly! The Thermostat location etc. all made this a requirement as they are no longer the highest spot on the engine. The changes do allow a steadier temperature in the engine with less cold shocks on t-stat opening.[/QUOTE]

I've seen only 4 corner steam line configuration on the LS but that may have changed since I was into one. Because the engine is higher in the front lines only in front maybe the same thought process that went into the 6.5 td.
 
FERM: Have steam lines on the DuraMax or?
Nope. Coolant is sucked in through the water pump, goes down the drivers side of the block through the oil cooler, is pumped in through the rear adapter housing where it enters the block, rises up through the block into the heads, and goes out the front of the heads(not the top like a 6.5) into a crossover. The crossover has 1 of each type of t-stat with a restrictor built into the coolant bypass tube. The rear stat starts to open at 180, the front stat at 185, and at 212 the front stat blocks the bypass providing the full 112GPM of coolant flow(yes, less than the late model 6.5's, but the 06+ DURAMAX is somewhere around 145GPM of flow). Also there is a a line coming off the bypass up to the turbo for turbo cooling, and exits through a 240 degree t stat. The heater line comes out of the top of the crossover, but returns back at the water pump inlet. So there is no steam lines or anything. The degas bottle connects the lower radiator hose close to the radiator like a 6.5, and only has a burp line going back to the degas bottle off the top of the radiator.
 
I've seen only 4 corner steam line configuration on the LS but that may have changed since I was into one. Because the engine is higher in the front lines only in front maybe the same thought process that went into the 6.5 td.

Two corner (front) setup is on the LS2 used in a Trailblazer SS so I may be misinformed on this.
 
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