2-Cycle oil additive: recommended type and ratio questions

[GM Guy]

First off, what exact spec of 2-cycle should be ran?

Second, how much? the only 6.5s on our place are my one, and dad's two. All are C3500HDs with the single rear 31 gallon tank.

For knowledge, what should the ratio be, in case we aquire a newer one with the 40 gal tanks?

 

[JMJNet]

I read at BITOG, 2.5 oz per 10 gal is approximately 1:500.

A lot of us using the 1 gallon size Supertech from Wally World. I think it is TCW3, the kind use in the boat.

 

[Schwind]

I am running the super tech (wally world) 2-cycle as well. It is TC-W3 ashless. I run 1 oz. per gallon, IIRC it is a ratio of 200:1. I usually just add a pint when I fill up. Most of the time when I fill up I am putting 16 to 20 gallons in. I also run power service every other tank or two.

 

[94K30]

I run slightly less than an oz a gallon, of the TC-W3 spec 2 cycle. I also run stanadyne performance formula additive......

 

[TurboTahoe]

I suggest putting in a gallon or two of soy-based biodiesel in lieu of 2-stroke oil if you are after lubricity. Subtract out the cost of 2 gallons of regular diesel (times 90% as that is the amount of energy relative to regular diesel) to calculate the actual cost (after all, you are getting two gallons of fuel)

-Rob

 

[JeffsJeep04]

I bought one of the small bottles and a gallon at walmart. I use one (pint?) per tank and refill that so I'm consistent. I put 16 OZ (half of the "100 gallon" bottle) in per tank of power service diesel fuel supplement (white bottle) in the winter as well. I generally fill up every half tank, so a quarter of the PS bottle and half of the pint of two stroke oil per tank. I've only put a half tank of blended fuel in so far, and with the power service, I've had no troubles will gelling at all with straight #2, down to -10 this winter so far.

 

[Ratman]

For whatever it's worth, I fly an experimental aircraft with a Rotax engine. Rotax strongly recommends against the use of any TCW3 oils due to the reduced lubricity the "W" oil offers.

The "W" refers to the oil being water-soluble for use in outboards and personal watercraft etc.

Rotax recommends any oil that is not a water-soluble product. This type of oil can be found at dirt bike shops, and lawn equipment shops. I hate Pennzoil with a passion, but Pennzoil offers the only 2-stroke dino-oil recommended by Rotax due to the extreme pressure additives they put in it. One other 2-stroke oil that is very good is any of the oil packaged by Stihl for use in their chainsaws and trimmers (although the Stihl oil is exactly the same as the Pennzoil in both color and viscosity).

I don't use TCW3 in anything I care about, -lawn and garden equipment included. After reading the lengthy report that Rotax did on 2-stroke oils, it would appear they have some valid data to back up their recommendations.

Granted, the purpose we are using the oil for is very different from what is expected of the oil in an air-cooled 2-stroke, but if the water-soluble oils don't have the lubricity of the air-cooled oils, I would think that one would want to use the oil that offered the best lubricity.

I know many are using the TCW3 without a problem, so I'll probably take a bashing for saying all this.

Dosing the tank with regular SAE-30 would do the trick also (I know many who do this).

I personally use Power Service in my #2.

Take all this for whatever it's worth.

 

[Diesel -T]

Good info Ratman re diff between oil for air cooled versus water cooled (marine). Never knew the diff.
Assume the 30 wt. oil is non HD.? Often wondered if mutigrade would hurt.
Can you tell us a bit about the home built. Had a Quickie kit years ago.

 

[JeffsJeep04]

Good info Ratman re diff between oil for air cooled versus water cooled (marine). Never knew the diff.
Assume the 30 wt. oil is non HD.? Often wondered if mutigrade would hurt.
Can you tell us a bit about the home built. Had a Quickie kit years ago.

You'd want to use non-detergent oil, which is sometimes called a HD 30wt.

 

[Diesel -T]

Jeff, Other way around .The HD refers to a detergent oil.Agree in a 2 stroke engine detergent oil shouldnt be used as it doesnt burn as well as 2troke oil .Just wonder how critical this would be in our engines .

 

[hereismylife]

different kind of fuel.

Here is some info that might here you out. I got the new diesel mag and there is an article in there that shows someone that is running 90% atf 10 % diesel.
He has run it for 18,000 miles and no problems yet. this is in a 7.3 though. I also run atf,biodiesel, And oil and not problems yet.:thumbsup:

 

[Brooklyn Tow]

For whatever it's worth, I fly an experimental aircraft with a Rotax engine. Rotax strongly recommends against the use of any TCW3 oils due to the reduced lubricity the "W" oil offers.

The "W" refers to the oil being water-soluble for use in outboards and personal watercraft etc.

Rotax recommends any oil that is not a water-soluble product. This type of oil can be found at dirt bike shops, and lawn equipment shops. I hate Pennzoil with a passion, but Pennzoil offers the only 2-stroke dino-oil recommended by Rotax due to the extreme pressure additives they put in it. One other 2-stroke oil that is very good is any of the oil packaged by Stihl for use in their chainsaws and trimmers (although the Stihl oil is exactly the same as the Pennzoil in both color and viscosity).

I don't use TCW3 in anything I care about, -lawn and garden equipment included. After reading the lengthy report that Rotax did on 2-stroke oils, it would appear they have some valid data to back up their recommendations.

Granted, the purpose we are using the oil for is very different from what is expected of the oil in an air-cooled 2-stroke, but if the water-soluble oils don't have the lubricity of the air-cooled oils, I would think that one would want to use the oil that offered the best lubricity.

I know many are using the TCW3 without a problem, so I'll probably take a bashing for saying all this.

Dosing the tank with regular SAE-30 would do the trick also (I know many who do this).

I personally use Power Service in my #2.

Take all this for whatever it's worth.

Bill Heath also recomends the "regular El Cheapo Motor oil"......He told me that he adds 1 quart 10W-30 or SAE 30 (not sure if he said 10W or not) motor oil in every tank for many years.

I mentioned the 2 stroke and he said he likes the motor oil better.
I don't know why.

I was using the 2 stroke for a long while but the dark purple/blue coloring, I was told is no good for the optical sensor.......I can't find any non colored 2 stroke anywhere, so now i'm on the motor oil program......about 1 oz to every 2 gallons.

 

[Ratman]

Good info Ratman re diff between oil for air cooled versus water cooled (marine). Never knew the diff.
Assume the 30 wt. oil is non HD.? Often wondered if mutigrade would hurt.
Can you tell us a bit about the home built. Had a Quickie kit years ago.

Here's a picture of my bird. It is a 2002 Cosmos Bison with a 503 DCDI Rotax with a "B" gearbox and a 68" Ivoprop. Makes 52 BHP at ISA conditions, has a gross weight rating of 1100 pounds, and a climb rate of 900 feet per minute (at 70% of gross weight, -standard density altitude). I have two different wings depending on what kind of flying I'm doing. Shown is the Cosmos 19 meter, and I also have a Northwing 15 meter for taking trips and dealing with the mid afternoon thermals. Fuel burn (at 90% power) is a staggering 4 gallons per hour, maximum cruise speed with the 15 meter is around 75 MPH, only 52 MPH with the 19 meter. Stall speed with the 19 is 28 MPH, and is 36 with the 15. Equipped with strobes, nav lights, and full instrumentation, including a comm radio, intercom, ipod/cd input, landing lights, magnetic compass and GPS. Range is dependent on conditions, but averages 200 or so miles on 14 gallons of fuel (at 70% of gross weight) -leaving several gallons of fuel reserve. It is also equipped with a BRS ballistic parachute that saves the entire craft (assuming a total structural failure which happens right next to never in these aircraft).

And, yes, you do need at least a sport pilot rating and the craft has to be inspected annually. The reason being, it weighs more than the part 103 weight restriction of 254 pounds dry, and carries more than 5 gallons of fuel, -and oh yeah, it has more than one seat, -which is the biggie.

Approximate cost in today's dollars, -about 22k as equipped.

 

[Diesel -T]

Neat stuff.

 

[Dan Hunter]

Fuel burn (at 90% power) is a staggering 4 gallons per hour

Defying gravity comes with a price. The current aircraft I train on burns about 500 pph and it's considered economical within the construct of Air Force trainers. One of the aircraft I flew would burn 120,000 pounds or so during a single mission. It cost about 5000 pounds if I shot a bad approach and had to go around.

That looks like a lot of fun. Too many bells and whistles...too much cabin comfort and the flying machine becomes a video game.

 

[Ratman]

Defying gravity comes with a price. The current aircraft I train on burns about 500 pph and it's considered economical within the construct of Air Force trainers. One of the aircraft I flew would burn 120,000 pounds or so during a single mission. It cost about 5000 pounds if I shot a bad approach and had to go around.

That looks like a lot of fun. Too many bells and whistles...too much cabin comfort and the flying machine becomes a video game.

Man, 5000 pounds on a missed approach, -that's a lotta fuel!!

Yep, it is absolutely a blast to fly to the beach in the summer, and to fly through the valley here in the Pac NW, it just doesn't get any better. When it get's warm out I fly through the rows of sprinklers at the sod farm!

Too much fun, -maybe that's why like everything else fun, -they are trying to regulate the crap out of it now.

 

[Idle_Chatter]

5000 pounds for a go-around? What is it, a C-5?

Nice ultra-light, Ratman.

 

[Matt Bachand]

I've mainly used 2-stroke, but sometimes i've used SAE-30. I think i'll switch to the SAE-30 as I don't like the dye either. 2-stroke is made to burn, so ash isn't a problem, not sure if it would be with the regular oil, but 128:1 is pretty cut.

 

[vail426]

When I was a kid, The old timers used 30 weight non detergent as the norm in 2 cycle engines. It must have some benefit. Another $.02 --

 

[Ratman]

When I was a kid, The old timers used 30 weight non detergent as the norm in 2 cycle engines. It must have some benefit. Another $.02 --

Yes, 30W will work, but it isn't the hot ticket in 2-strokes nowadays, because the biggest issue with ANY 2-stroke is stuck rings (whether it uses Dykes rings or not). Petro-based 2-stroke has additives that are specifically designed to prevent stuck rings, -whereas straight SAE30 does not. Word is, most of the petro-based 2-stroke available on the market today will in fact stick rings more so than synthetic (like red line, etc), -but on the positive side, dino-oil prevents rust and corrosion much better than syn, -and if it's going to sit in storage, -the dino is the best at keeping rust pits from forming on the needle bearings on the wrist pins. I ran syn for a while in the rotax, but promptly went back to dino after I saw the con-rods in the rotax turning a slight orangy-color. That made me re-think what the hell I was doing. I know the syn might work best in an all out engine like a dirt bike or a banshee motor, but in my relatively modest rotax, -it surely wasn't worth any added performance, -if there even was any to be had. If you guys are gonna run syn in your 2-strokes, be sure to keep an eye out for any rust forming on the ferrous parts in the bottom-ends, -can be a bad thing if ignored. If running dino, -when rings start to get sticky, compression will fall off, and you'll get the hard start scenario much like a fouled plug. A periodic "fogging" through the plug holes with WD40 keeps the rings unstuck and happy (giving it time to sit and work of course). Mixing stuff at 50:1 with good dino is the best compromise. Nearly everything will run perfect at 50:1, the extra oil at 32:1, or even 40:1 actually does more harm than good, and will stick a set of rings in a hurry. Most 2-strokes meeting CARB regulations run EXTREMELY lean at idle, and there can be a slight risk of sticking an engine when throttled back down to idle after a real hard run, -it clarifies that right in my rotax operating manual, -but we also have the benefit of CHT gauges also, -whereas most chainsaws and leaf blowers do not. If I run the snot out of any of my engines, I will always idle them with the choke partially on to make sure the engine isn't starved of lubrication, -at least until it cools down a bit.

The TCW3 (in my book, -and Rotax's) scores a big fat ZERO, because it offers crap for lubricity, and actually absorbs water and holds it against all the metal parts in the engine. The only thing the TCW3 is good for is keeping the "greenies" happy, -that's about it.

I feel like I've totally hijacked this thread with the whole 2-stroke thing, -but hey, it's close to Christmas, -and we're all friends helping each other, -oh, and this place isn't like that "other" nasty place. :grouphug:

All the best to all my fellow 6.5'ers out there.

So, as long as this thread is totally hijacked, -does everyone have their Christmas shopping done?