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Modern Engines = no break in
- Thread starter Big T
- Start date
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Understand he is using top of the line - one at a time hand built engines. The piston rings are made specific to that hone spec by total seal. Then he “runs” the engine on the simulator testing machine which is about 5 times the cost of a regular dyno. One of his engines is double the price of a new crate from the factory.
Don’t go thinking you’re no longer breaking in an engine. It’s just that with what his shop does he takes cash of the first 400 miles break in for you.
Don’t go thinking you’re no longer breaking in an engine. It’s just that with what his shop does he takes cash of the first 400 miles break in for you.
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
A very old mechanic that I worked for. He preached, if a cylinder wall is smooth with no scoring, why would anyone screw up that perfectly machined surface with a hone.
I always honed.
When I rebuilt the Poly Head 318 in the W100, i didnt hone. Went with 0.010 over rings, adjusted end gap and putter together.
The only smoke that engine ever made was burning off the assembly lube.
It has not smoked nor used oil from day one.
If the next rebuild I do, the pistons fits that nice with no cylinder scoring, I will follow the same procedure.
SAE did an extensive study on the subject of to hone or not to hone.
They had a fleet of trucks that all run similar routes.
When it came time to rebuild engines, if cylinders measured good with no scoring, they didnt hone. Some engines they honed the cylinders to rid scoring and some needed to be bored.
They did a very close watch on maintenance and oil consumption.
Their findings were that the engines that did not require honing used less oil than the engines that required honing and also bored and honed.
Guess this old Poly 318 is My test engine and so far is holding up to the SAEs findings.
Big T
Well-Known Member
Honed = the bottle brush with abrasive balls?
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
I have used those.
I have also used the micro adjustable ridgid hones to help remove some uneveness in cylinder walls, mainly the areas where the rings stop.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
The difference now is they measure the cylinder wall texture to an unbelievable tolerance. Not at all like it use to be
dbrannon79
I'm getting there!
I've often wondered the difference between the ball hone (steel round brush with the ballies) and the flat hone with the three flat stones. when and why which to use!
this will help me when and if I get around to pulling out the engine in the 93 and possibly save it and reduce or eliminate the blow by it has.
this will help me when and if I get around to pulling out the engine in the 93 and possibly save it and reduce or eliminate the blow by it has.
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
And watching that video of Daves Auto, they showed a short glimpse of a cylinder or two and those appeared to be honed down to a fine polish.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
If your old school the ball hones is only to rough up cylinder and achieve the proper crosshatch. Using the new methods they say there is no place for a ball hone
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
I guess for me it depends on what I'm expecting from the build. Cheap get it back on the road or expensive want it to last a long time
Also the type of ring matters, ts ring sets want a curtain finish, stock rings don't really care.
The high and low spots in the cylinder walls are abrasive to the rings, break in is seen as more honing. Race motors use thin light rings and don't have time to seat like thick heavy rings do.
My machine shop has this honing machine and I have my builds done, it's not much more cost but it's what ts rings want.
I still recommend a break in period with high zinc oil .
The high and low spots in the cylinder walls are abrasive to the rings, break in is seen as more honing. Race motors use thin light rings and don't have time to seat like thick heavy rings do.
My machine shop has this honing machine and I have my builds done, it's not much more cost but it's what ts rings want.
I still recommend a break in period with high zinc oil .
Paveltolz
Доверяй, но проверяй
It’s not like the break in period rids the cylinder walls of the cross hatching either. When my heads were swapped out for P-400’s I had about 20K on the rebuild and the cross hatching was still present. The pictures weren’t the best so, not able to post up.
FWIW, I broke my truck in pretty gently. First 500 it got an oil change at 50 miles (I didn’t do / wasn’t told about a 30 min idle), then at 200 and again at 500 and 1000. I drove the first 1000 miles like I had a raw egg between my foot and the throttle pedal. Any long runs I would change speed 5mph every 5-10 min using songs as a gauge. At 700 miles I had to go to Ft. Lewis for some walk so I drove it out and stopped in at Heath’s shop about 750 miles away. I was still doing the gentle throttle thing climbing out of Ontario OR at about the 1200 mile mark but, when I was climbing out of LeGrand over to Pendelton, I decided to start ‘driving’ it and the truck felt like it just came alive. Kinda like unhooking an heavy trailer. All the power and more than I had been expecting and it just rolled up the 6%+ long grades with ease. There’s a set of long grades called ‘three sisters’ (wish is probably the polite company reference) between Yakima and Ellensburg that were no issue either.
FWIW, I broke my truck in pretty gently. First 500 it got an oil change at 50 miles (I didn’t do / wasn’t told about a 30 min idle), then at 200 and again at 500 and 1000. I drove the first 1000 miles like I had a raw egg between my foot and the throttle pedal. Any long runs I would change speed 5mph every 5-10 min using songs as a gauge. At 700 miles I had to go to Ft. Lewis for some walk so I drove it out and stopped in at Heath’s shop about 750 miles away. I was still doing the gentle throttle thing climbing out of Ontario OR at about the 1200 mile mark but, when I was climbing out of LeGrand over to Pendelton, I decided to start ‘driving’ it and the truck felt like it just came alive. Kinda like unhooking an heavy trailer. All the power and more than I had been expecting and it just rolled up the 6%+ long grades with ease. There’s a set of long grades called ‘three sisters’ (wish is probably the polite company reference) between Yakima and Ellensburg that were no issue either.
Big T
Well-Known Member
I alway understood that you were supposed to vary the speed of the engine during break in. That is hard to do on these trucks with a an automatic transmission. You basically end up around 2000 rpm no matter the gear.
I tell my customers to hook to a heavy load and make it work hard but don't over heat it, the rings need pressure to seat well... No babying it....
Will L.
Well-Known Member
@MrMarty51 if the same exact pistons and piston rings are going back in the same cylinders- then a hone is not needed as the rings are seated to cylinder wall is the theory. It isn’t often people remove a piston and reinstall the existing rings but it happens in certain situations. But the moment new rings are installed 100% it requires being honed regardless of what type ring is going in.
@Big T yes either ball hone, or straight stone hone.
The cylinder walls can have a wave, depressions or high spots in the vertical axis.
So for this reason a straight hone most commonly a 3 stone hone is used. The desire is flattened any high spots to reduce the friction against the rings. However you might already have low spots and honing out the high spots intentionally can cause you to accidentally lower the already low spots.
The theory of the 3 stone hone is that it is only riding on the high spots until they are down to the proper level and barely touching the low spots.
@Paveltolz
How a guy hones his cylinders determines how the break in goes. Wazoo machine finish like Chris uses (same as mentioned above) means that engine is broke in WAY before 1,000 miles. 90% broke in before 300 miles. Diy guy doing it first time- might take 1,500 miles- but understand that version is getting rid of the excess silicone from oil and why the oil & filter keeps getting changes more than the metal wear beyond 750 miles.
In any case if the rings are not seated by 1,000 miles something is not being done well.
Chris is right- work that engine. Dont abuse it but work it 95% as hard as you ever will. Then once the oil change then beat it harder than you ever will. Hook up to a semi trailer and race it down the dragstrip then up and down mountains.
Absolutely vary the rpm. sustained rpm is not how to break it in. You are promoting wear at this point not trying for better mpg. You are concentrating on the engine not road conditions, idiots around you, song on the radio or wife next to you. Use this time now to find faults inside engine and with cooling system, gauges, etc. you are setting baseline for how you measure the truck for the next bazillion miles. This is why I believe in build the engine and afterwards start changing everything else like trans, axles, tires, etc. even break it in on a stock turbo then later you can dial in big turbo.
My engine will be broke in as an n/a engine on a stock db2. I am gonna give it all she can take. Then it will get the hot rod ip, the big turbo.
It isn’t try to set world record to break in the engine- it is wear in the cylinder walls.
Depending what I see in the oil, how it feels, what it’s intended use is- oil change at 250, 500, 1500, 3,000.
Thats the short answer. Yall know books are coming…
@Big T yes either ball hone, or straight stone hone.
The cylinder walls can have a wave, depressions or high spots in the vertical axis.
So for this reason a straight hone most commonly a 3 stone hone is used. The desire is flattened any high spots to reduce the friction against the rings. However you might already have low spots and honing out the high spots intentionally can cause you to accidentally lower the already low spots.
The theory of the 3 stone hone is that it is only riding on the high spots until they are down to the proper level and barely touching the low spots.
@Paveltolz
How a guy hones his cylinders determines how the break in goes. Wazoo machine finish like Chris uses (same as mentioned above) means that engine is broke in WAY before 1,000 miles. 90% broke in before 300 miles. Diy guy doing it first time- might take 1,500 miles- but understand that version is getting rid of the excess silicone from oil and why the oil & filter keeps getting changes more than the metal wear beyond 750 miles.
In any case if the rings are not seated by 1,000 miles something is not being done well.
Chris is right- work that engine. Dont abuse it but work it 95% as hard as you ever will. Then once the oil change then beat it harder than you ever will. Hook up to a semi trailer and race it down the dragstrip then up and down mountains.
Absolutely vary the rpm. sustained rpm is not how to break it in. You are promoting wear at this point not trying for better mpg. You are concentrating on the engine not road conditions, idiots around you, song on the radio or wife next to you. Use this time now to find faults inside engine and with cooling system, gauges, etc. you are setting baseline for how you measure the truck for the next bazillion miles. This is why I believe in build the engine and afterwards start changing everything else like trans, axles, tires, etc. even break it in on a stock turbo then later you can dial in big turbo.
My engine will be broke in as an n/a engine on a stock db2. I am gonna give it all she can take. Then it will get the hot rod ip, the big turbo.
It isn’t try to set world record to break in the engine- it is wear in the cylinder walls.
Depending what I see in the oil, how it feels, what it’s intended use is- oil change at 250, 500, 1500, 3,000.
Thats the short answer. Yall know books are coming…
Will L.
Well-Known Member
So knowing your cylinder walls are straight - like say you have a race engine you constantly replace rings in and there is zero doubt the walls are goofy- also you don’t want to take out a bunch of material you only want a good crosshatch-
Now use the ball hone. A ball hone does a far better job when operated by hand than a 3 stone to hit every tiny area and not removing a bunch of material.
Imagine tiny depressions in the vertical axis along the wall- a 3 stone hone will not hit any of the little dimpled areas. But the ball hone will hit every area along the way.
In a machine shop the advanced machines use a single cutting blade in place of the 3 stone hone and the boring machine cuts away all the material to make it exactly straight in the vertical axis. The head spins fast and travels up/down incredibly slow. Then a different head is put on the machine or in some cases a complete different machine is used and the head spins fast while the up/down travel happens very fast. The desire is a 60° cross hatch.
The machine shop uses huge stationary very accurate machines to get the finish needed.
At home, on the race track, etc. a builder who knows how to check for wear in the cylinder along the vertical axis can check and if everything is good then removing a bunch of material is not needed. For instance my optimizer. It had close to 70,000 miles on it. But I had one damaged piston so even if I replaced that piston and re used my old rings in it- the micro difference in piston diameter would affect my ring seal on that one cylinder. So I would have to hone the one cylinder and I could have left the other 7 alone. A ball hone is preferred for this task o er any other method.
I could choose to replace the one cylinder’s rings or replace all the cylinders rings.
Again- ball hone.
There is no problems in the cylinders- the engine is running excellent. No need to do a complete tear down and spend thousands of dollars at the machine shop.
To me- the advantages of the gapless rings make sense and easily pay for themselves long term. Heck, think about the better seal against oil loss when it has 150,000 miles and more. The difference in oil bought between 150-175k pays for the gapless rings and a ball hone. So having an engine apart and not moving to the gapless rings is an error imo.
So right away I checked the cylinders, bought a new ball hone (my old one was donated to a good friend who moved away with many of my other tools & some parts) and bought a set of gapless rings. My initial intention was buy one replacement optimizer piston and go from there.
But the “while I am here” kicked in and the thought of “I am tired of building engines and want this to be the last time I am inside a 6.5” so one thing led to another. Dropped compression, going big turbo, p400 heads, yada yada.
So one thing different because I am going to have an custom set of gapless piston rings made - so I now need to sell the gapless set I already bought. I figured I will use the new ball hone on my engine then sell it too with the rings for whoever here gets into there next build and save them a few bucks. My different ring choice isn’t any secret sauce but unique to my use in running 350-400hp range and going to be doing it on black diesel which is really high soot producing and my 18:1 compression. So the minor difference really isn’t a requirement, just a minor change that really will have no difference on the engine for the first 200,000 miles.
Anyways-
Something maybe not known by all is engine resistance: 90% is from the rings.
It used to be the rings were worn out and cylinders out of shape enough that by 100,000 miles many engines were basically done. Cylinder wall design & metal improved in it and rings- mostly rings made it so we can frequently get 250,000 miles. Thats where our 6.5 tech is. But the rings new in our engines are big and bulky by modern standards. But because we deal with so much soot they have to be. Many of the power improvements in modern engines is skinny rings. Simply not an option in a 6.5 unless you are building a dedicated race engine that you are going to replace rings at very frequent intervals. A street/strip combo 6.5 could use modern skinny rings and see 35 hp, 75 torque gains but there is no way the rings live 25,000 miles. So you will get good at the ball hone and new rings every 20,000 miles. If you go to the ultimate rings and gain 65hp and 120 torque you are putting in rings in less than 1,000 miles. No the rings aren’t responsible for all the power gains but require to do if doing all the friction loss tricks like skinny bearings and doubling rpm range capabilities. Yall remember I said before my race 6.5 were capable of over 6,000 rpm right? They just didn’t do it a long time. Things like custom rods became a requirement. Wish I had one set of those still around. Haha.
Getting the proper cross hatching is absolutely required because the oil has to be held to the walls or you wear out the rings
So knowing your cylinder walls are straight - like say you have a race engine you constantly replace rings in and there is zero doubt the walls are goofy- also you don’t want to take out a bunch of material you only want a good crosshatch-
Now use the ball hone. A ball hone does a far better job when operated by hand than a 3 stone to hit every tiny area and not removing a bunch of material.
Imagine tiny depressions in the vertical axis along the wall- a 3 stone hone will not hit any of the little dimpled areas. But the ball hone will hit every area along the way.
In a machine shop the advanced machines use a single cutting blade in place of the 3 stone hone and the boring machine cuts away all the material to make it exactly straight in the vertical axis. The head spins fast and travels up/down incredibly slow. Then a different head is put on the machine or in some cases a complete different machine is used and the head spins fast while the up/down travel happens very fast. The desire is a 60° cross hatch.
The machine shop uses huge stationary very accurate machines to get the finish needed.
At home, on the race track, etc. a builder who knows how to check for wear in the cylinder along the vertical axis can check and if everything is good then removing a bunch of material is not needed. For instance my optimizer. It had close to 70,000 miles on it. But I had one damaged piston so even if I replaced that piston and re used my old rings in it- the micro difference in piston diameter would affect my ring seal on that one cylinder. So I would have to hone the one cylinder and I could have left the other 7 alone. A ball hone is preferred for this task o er any other method.
I could choose to replace the one cylinder’s rings or replace all the cylinders rings.
Again- ball hone.
There is no problems in the cylinders- the engine is running excellent. No need to do a complete tear down and spend thousands of dollars at the machine shop.
To me- the advantages of the gapless rings make sense and easily pay for themselves long term. Heck, think about the better seal against oil loss when it has 150,000 miles and more. The difference in oil bought between 150-175k pays for the gapless rings and a ball hone. So having an engine apart and not moving to the gapless rings is an error imo.
So right away I checked the cylinders, bought a new ball hone (my old one was donated to a good friend who moved away with many of my other tools & some parts) and bought a set of gapless rings. My initial intention was buy one replacement optimizer piston and go from there.
But the “while I am here” kicked in and the thought of “I am tired of building engines and want this to be the last time I am inside a 6.5” so one thing led to another. Dropped compression, going big turbo, p400 heads, yada yada.
So one thing different because I am going to have an custom set of gapless piston rings made - so I now need to sell the gapless set I already bought. I figured I will use the new ball hone on my engine then sell it too with the rings for whoever here gets into there next build and save them a few bucks. My different ring choice isn’t any secret sauce but unique to my use in running 350-400hp range and going to be doing it on black diesel which is really high soot producing and my 18:1 compression. So the minor difference really isn’t a requirement, just a minor change that really will have no difference on the engine for the first 200,000 miles.
Now use the ball hone. A ball hone does a far better job when operated by hand than a 3 stone to hit every tiny area and not removing a bunch of material.
Imagine tiny depressions in the vertical axis along the wall- a 3 stone hone will not hit any of the little dimpled areas. But the ball hone will hit every area along the way.
In a machine shop the advanced machines use a single cutting blade in place of the 3 stone hone and the boring machine cuts away all the material to make it exactly straight in the vertical axis. The head spins fast and travels up/down incredibly slow. Then a different head is put on the machine or in some cases a complete different machine is used and the head spins fast while the up/down travel happens very fast. The desire is a 60° cross hatch.
The machine shop uses huge stationary very accurate machines to get the finish needed.
At home, on the race track, etc. a builder who knows how to check for wear in the cylinder along the vertical axis can check and if everything is good then removing a bunch of material is not needed. For instance my optimizer. It had close to 70,000 miles on it. But I had one damaged piston so even if I replaced that piston and re used my old rings in it- the micro difference in piston diameter would affect my ring seal on that one cylinder. So I would have to hone the one cylinder and I could have left the other 7 alone. A ball hone is preferred for this task o er any other method.
I could choose to replace the one cylinder’s rings or replace all the cylinders rings.
Again- ball hone.
There is no problems in the cylinders- the engine is running excellent. No need to do a complete tear down and spend thousands of dollars at the machine shop.
To me- the advantages of the gapless rings make sense and easily pay for themselves long term. Heck, think about the better seal against oil loss when it has 150,000 miles and more. The difference in oil bought between 150-175k pays for the gapless rings and a ball hone. So having an engine apart and not moving to the gapless rings is an error imo.
So right away I checked the cylinders, bought a new ball hone (my old one was donated to a good friend who moved away with many of my other tools & some parts) and bought a set of gapless rings. My initial intention was buy one replacement optimizer piston and go from there.
But the “while I am here” kicked in and the thought of “I am tired of building engines and want this to be the last time I am inside a 6.5” so one thing led to another. Dropped compression, going big turbo, p400 heads, yada yada.
So one thing different because I am going to have an custom set of gapless piston rings made - so I now need to sell the gapless set I already bought. I figured I will use the new ball hone on my engine then sell it too with the rings for whoever here gets into there next build and save them a few bucks. My different ring choice isn’t any secret sauce but unique to my use in running 350-400hp range and going to be doing it on black diesel which is really high soot producing and my 18:1 compression. So the minor difference really isn’t a requirement, just a minor change that really will have no difference on the engine for the first 200,000 miles.
Anyways-
Something maybe not known by all is engine resistance: 90% is from the rings.
It used to be the rings were worn out and cylinders out of shape enough that by 100,000 miles many engines were basically done. Cylinder wall design & metal improved in it and rings- mostly rings made it so we can frequently get 250,000 miles. Thats where our 6.5 tech is. But the rings new in our engines are big and bulky by modern standards. But because we deal with so much soot they have to be. Many of the power improvements in modern engines is skinny rings. Simply not an option in a 6.5 unless you are building a dedicated race engine that you are going to replace rings at very frequent intervals. A street/strip combo 6.5 could use modern skinny rings and see 35 hp, 75 torque gains but there is no way the rings live 25,000 miles. So you will get good at the ball hone and new rings every 20,000 miles. If you go to the ultimate rings and gain 65hp and 120 torque you are putting in rings in less than 1,000 miles. No the rings aren’t responsible for all the power gains but require to do if doing all the friction loss tricks like skinny bearings and doubling rpm range capabilities. Yall remember I said before my race 6.5 were capable of over 6,000 rpm right? They just didn’t do it a long time. Things like custom rods became a requirement. Wish I had one set of those still around. Haha.
Getting the proper cross hatching is absolutely required because the oil has to be held to the walls or you wear out the rings
So knowing your cylinder walls are straight - like say you have a race engine you constantly replace rings in and there is zero doubt the walls are goofy- also you don’t want to take out a bunch of material you only want a good crosshatch-
Now use the ball hone. A ball hone does a far better job when operated by hand than a 3 stone to hit every tiny area and not removing a bunch of material.
Imagine tiny depressions in the vertical axis along the wall- a 3 stone hone will not hit any of the little dimpled areas. But the ball hone will hit every area along the way.
In a machine shop the advanced machines use a single cutting blade in place of the 3 stone hone and the boring machine cuts away all the material to make it exactly straight in the vertical axis. The head spins fast and travels up/down incredibly slow. Then a different head is put on the machine or in some cases a complete different machine is used and the head spins fast while the up/down travel happens very fast. The desire is a 60° cross hatch.
The machine shop uses huge stationary very accurate machines to get the finish needed.
At home, on the race track, etc. a builder who knows how to check for wear in the cylinder along the vertical axis can check and if everything is good then removing a bunch of material is not needed. For instance my optimizer. It had close to 70,000 miles on it. But I had one damaged piston so even if I replaced that piston and re used my old rings in it- the micro difference in piston diameter would affect my ring seal on that one cylinder. So I would have to hone the one cylinder and I could have left the other 7 alone. A ball hone is preferred for this task o er any other method.
I could choose to replace the one cylinder’s rings or replace all the cylinders rings.
Again- ball hone.
There is no problems in the cylinders- the engine is running excellent. No need to do a complete tear down and spend thousands of dollars at the machine shop.
To me- the advantages of the gapless rings make sense and easily pay for themselves long term. Heck, think about the better seal against oil loss when it has 150,000 miles and more. The difference in oil bought between 150-175k pays for the gapless rings and a ball hone. So having an engine apart and not moving to the gapless rings is an error imo.
So right away I checked the cylinders, bought a new ball hone (my old one was donated to a good friend who moved away with many of my other tools & some parts) and bought a set of gapless rings. My initial intention was buy one replacement optimizer piston and go from there.
But the “while I am here” kicked in and the thought of “I am tired of building engines and want this to be the last time I am inside a 6.5” so one thing led to another. Dropped compression, going big turbo, p400 heads, yada yada.
So one thing different because I am going to have an custom set of gapless piston rings made - so I now need to sell the gapless set I already bought. I figured I will use the new ball hone on my engine then sell it too with the rings for whoever here gets into there next build and save them a few bucks. My different ring choice isn’t any secret sauce but unique to my use in running 350-400hp range and going to be doing it on black diesel which is really high soot producing and my 18:1 compression. So the minor difference really isn’t a requirement, just a minor change that really will have no difference on the engine for the first 200,000 miles.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Something maybe not known by all is engine resistance: 90% is from the rings.
It used to be the rings were worn out and cylinders out of shape enough that by 100,000 miles many engines were basically done. Cylinder wall design & metal improved in it and rings- mostly rings made it so we can frequently get 250,000 miles. Thats where our 6.5 tech is. But the rings new in our engines are big and bulky by modern standards. But because we deal with so much soot they have to be. Many of the power improvements in modern engines is skinny rings. Simply not an option in a 6.5 unless you are building a dedicated race engine that you are going to replace rings at very frequent intervals.
Getting the proper cross hatching is absolutely required because the oil has to be held to the walls or you wear out the rings incredibly fast. How exact? If you get it perfect like the wazoo machines do vs learning by test runs at home with a drill to get the speed right- you are dealing with less than a 5% difference. Race track= massive advantage. Average truck- meh… If my block was already at the machine shop, I ask how much. Subtract the cost of a hone- not the cheap one, the real one. Then decide if the difference is worth it. If you are diy guy and expect to be inside another engine in the next 10 years- get the hone and diy for most cases imo. If you’re never doing another engine then pay for it to be done. The cost of the shops time isn’t cheap. The advantage of the cross hatching by a machine is good because you know it is right. If it is the wazoo machine used in race engine machine shops, you are doing gapless rings, and spending big bucks on every detail gaining advantages everything - then consider it more as it will make the rings seat much quicker.
As to longer ring and cylinder life- yea it counts a little more IF YOU NEVER OVERHEAT IT. Get that 6.5 puppy to 240° one time and you negated the advantages for when that old dog to 200,000 miles. The cylinder walls will warp in the vertical axis and the temper is done from those rings -blow by is there regardless of how the crosshatching is. Remember the fine oil film held on is now in a corn field instead of a paved runway. So micro film of oil means diddly.
Don’t spend thousands into the fine intricacies of the engine and pinch pennies on cooling.
Many here are on a tight budget, some by need some by choice. Many who have more than one 6.5 will be into them all at some point. It only makes sense to do more yourself than pay someone else.
Something to say about this thats a new diy error- cordless. Use a corded drill at full speed and here is why.
To get the cross hatch at the correct angles is easy. You can practice it against any piece of flat metal. Full trigger then pick a speed how fast to move. Do 3 strokes then stop and measure the angle- 99 cent store kids protractor is enough.
If the angle is too steep:slow down your stroke. If angle is too flat:speed up. But never change the speed of the drill, that will be the constant factor in your work.
Should you buy a corded if you only have cordless? No. But you better have a descent battery that wont loose power and slow down its speed while you do it.
Maybe do 4 cylinders then recharge it if needed.
People argue about what cutting oil or instead of cutting oil using diesel or gasoline with either 3 stone (there are 4 stone also but used same) or ball hone.
It makes no difference to the engine so long as you keep it lubed. The stone cuts the metal and the lube washes away the debris, you dont want chunks of metal or stone piling up. You are not heating the metal enough to have impact so heat is not a concern. Gear Oil vs gas since that the most drastic difference - gas washes away the metal the fastest, makes the hone cut faster, least amount of metal rubbing metal which gives worse results. It also wears the hone the fastest PER STROKE. Now heavy oil like gear oil- the stone cuts slower and creates smaller metal scores per revolution. But now instead of a few strokes of the tool you have to do more strokes. So the argument of longer tool life becomes moot. Where the gasoline washes away the best it isn’t good and lube so now you get the argument of something in the middle. Light cutting oil or diesel fuel. My hair is grey- I am used to old school proven methods so I siphon the tank a little. I am for middle of the target and if I miss I still hit circle rather than the hill behind the target.
It used to be the rings were worn out and cylinders out of shape enough that by 100,000 miles many engines were basically done. Cylinder wall design & metal improved in it and rings- mostly rings made it so we can frequently get 250,000 miles. Thats where our 6.5 tech is. But the rings new in our engines are big and bulky by modern standards. But because we deal with so much soot they have to be. Many of the power improvements in modern engines is skinny rings. Simply not an option in a 6.5 unless you are building a dedicated race engine that you are going to replace rings at very frequent intervals.
Getting the proper cross hatching is absolutely required because the oil has to be held to the walls or you wear out the rings incredibly fast. How exact? If you get it perfect like the wazoo machines do vs learning by test runs at home with a drill to get the speed right- you are dealing with less than a 5% difference. Race track= massive advantage. Average truck- meh… If my block was already at the machine shop, I ask how much. Subtract the cost of a hone- not the cheap one, the real one. Then decide if the difference is worth it. If you are diy guy and expect to be inside another engine in the next 10 years- get the hone and diy for most cases imo. If you’re never doing another engine then pay for it to be done. The cost of the shops time isn’t cheap. The advantage of the cross hatching by a machine is good because you know it is right. If it is the wazoo machine used in race engine machine shops, you are doing gapless rings, and spending big bucks on every detail gaining advantages everything - then consider it more as it will make the rings seat much quicker.
As to longer ring and cylinder life- yea it counts a little more IF YOU NEVER OVERHEAT IT. Get that 6.5 puppy to 240° one time and you negated the advantages for when that old dog to 200,000 miles. The cylinder walls will warp in the vertical axis and the temper is done from those rings -blow by is there regardless of how the crosshatching is. Remember the fine oil film held on is now in a corn field instead of a paved runway. So micro film of oil means diddly.
Don’t spend thousands into the fine intricacies of the engine and pinch pennies on cooling.
Many here are on a tight budget, some by need some by choice. Many who have more than one 6.5 will be into them all at some point. It only makes sense to do more yourself than pay someone else.
Something to say about this thats a new diy error- cordless. Use a corded drill at full speed and here is why.
To get the cross hatch at the correct angles is easy. You can practice it against any piece of flat metal. Full trigger then pick a speed how fast to move. Do 3 strokes then stop and measure the angle- 99 cent store kids protractor is enough.
If the angle is too steep:slow down your stroke. If angle is too flat:speed up. But never change the speed of the drill, that will be the constant factor in your work.
Should you buy a corded if you only have cordless? No. But you better have a descent battery that wont loose power and slow down its speed while you do it.
Maybe do 4 cylinders then recharge it if needed.
People argue about what cutting oil or instead of cutting oil using diesel or gasoline with either 3 stone (there are 4 stone also but used same) or ball hone.
It makes no difference to the engine so long as you keep it lubed. The stone cuts the metal and the lube washes away the debris, you dont want chunks of metal or stone piling up. You are not heating the metal enough to have impact so heat is not a concern. Gear Oil vs gas since that the most drastic difference - gas washes away the metal the fastest, makes the hone cut faster, least amount of metal rubbing metal which gives worse results. It also wears the hone the fastest PER STROKE. Now heavy oil like gear oil- the stone cuts slower and creates smaller metal scores per revolution. But now instead of a few strokes of the tool you have to do more strokes. So the argument of longer tool life becomes moot. Where the gasoline washes away the best it isn’t good and lube so now you get the argument of something in the middle. Light cutting oil or diesel fuel. My hair is grey- I am used to old school proven methods so I siphon the tank a little. I am for middle of the target and if I miss I still hit circle rather than the hill behind the target.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Is the cross hatching still there when broken in or miles down the road? It better be or that engine is doomed. Breaking in the engine is mostly about knocking the peaks off of your cross hatching- not wearing away the cross hatching. And about wearing the fine surface of the rings to the exact angle of the cylinder wall when under power stroke. Remember the rings are not fixed to the piston. The bearings should never need wearing in. They are not metal to metal- when that happens you get minutes of engine life not years. That evil first second of movement every new start is what does all that damage.
So you are not “breaking in” bearings. You are breaking in cylinders, rings, timing chain/gears, seals, valve guides, etc. things like cam to lifter, lifter to pushrod& block, under oil pressure are like the bearings. Things that are lubed by splash oil like wrist pins, rocker arm to valve tip, etc are all things with constant wear and are like the cylinder walls- that’s what is breaking in. But it is all about the amount of friction it has. Rings are riding on a fine film of oil trapped in the cross hatch. As the piston goes down it consumes some of that oil. Piston goes up and more oil splashes on the walls hopefully filling the cross hatch. Oil ring removes the excess. Now a fine film gets on the bottom ring then a little less on the top ring. Under power stroke the flame burns away remaining oil in the cross hatch. The top ring scrapes that carbon up and out the exhaust it goes. Rinse and repeat.
No cross hatch means the oil doesn’t stay on the cylinder walls well. Oil ring scrapes most of it away and by the time top ring goes down- it is not lubed well.
Eventually the top ring scrapes the actual wall instead of a fine oil film and micro welds to the cylinder “seized rings”- engine go boomy or loss of compression.
What if cross hatch angle is wrong? It just doesn’t oil the rings as well. So you might get blowby at 200,000 miles vs 220,000 miles. The further off the angle the sooner blowby. So should you panic over diy vs machine doing it. Meh… testing has shown compression ratios alter the peak of the angle because the applied force changes. (boost = changes in compression ratio so your boost going up and down as you drive is your compression changing) the angle is about how well it hols the oil mostly and the amount of oil held desire changes by how much gets burned each stroke. Some racers share info most wont. But friends share and some friends shared with me that hold many trophies in the nhra that they use way different cross hatch angle than 60° in certain situations.
When the cross hatch is done too deep but the angle is right- you basically have super tall mountains and deep valleys. Now it will take longer to seat the rings. Seating the rings is like- you have a mountain range (cylinder walls cross hatches) but some of those mountains are way taller- you want them equal peak height. The rings have to start chopping the highest points first and as you get rid of the skinny peaks, the mountain thickness gets more as you go down. So a lot of mountains that are too tall takes longer to wear away. Remember Seating the rings is really wearing away the cross hatch peak not making the rings smaller only the finest of edge wear on the ring is being seated.
So when the rings take a long time to seat- the cross hatching MIGHT have been done too much. Along with too high and low difference is the more prevalent too many mountains made. Instead of the rings wearing away 300 mountain tops they have to wear away 1,000 then it will take longer to seat the rings. The more valleys= the more oil held so better right? Until so many valleys get cut into the mountains that instead of strong wide based mountains you have city sky scrapers that don’t withstand side loads.
Wow- sounds scary and talked you right out of diy huh? Now you really want that perfect surface finish which the better it is the better the engine, right? Using the microscope to examine exact angle and surface finish for the “right” results.
How many 6.5 here had not a perfect life but still crushed the 250,000 mile mark?
I rebuilt more 6.5 engines than most people ever even see in a lifetime. How many machine finished hone jobs? Maybe 4, probably 3 out of hundreds- maybe into the thousand mark that I rebuilt. It’s not that critical boys. If it were, there wouldn’t be any 1970,1980,1990 rebuilds or even 1990 factory builds make it that far. The factory didn’t bore/hone then test surface grade finishes with test with the modern equipment. It got a simple fast hone. A worker used their finger and felt it with their finger tip And it went down the line and into a truck that started smoking around 209,000 miles or 290,000 miles more depending on did he change the oil, did he over heat it, did he replace the injectors or did they wash down the cylinders since they started acting up at 160,000 miles mark.
If you want every possible advantage- by all means, it is not a mistake to have the perfect finish on cylinder walls from day one. But how you treat it from day one has a far bigger impact than the perfection of cylinder wall surfaces.
Remember when we didn’t use a laptop to measure the surface finish on the head or block where the gasket goes? And somehow those engines went 300,000 miles too. Running 45psi boost, adding NOS, shaving partial seconds off track times? Winning a competition by 0.01 better mpg than the competition? Yup - it counts. Driving to work? Towing a boat once a month? Hauling 187 lbs less than the truck is rated for every weekday for work and more on the day off because if you get it done this weekend means maybe next weekend is play time? - yeah, millions of trucks been doing that for decades and no super scope was needed.
incredibly fast. How exact? If you get it perfect like the wazoo machines do vs learning by test runs at home with a drill to get the speed right- you are dealing with less than a 5% difference. Race track= massive advantage. Average truck- meh… If my block was already at the machine shop, I ask how much. Subtract the cost of a hone- not the cheap one, the real one. Then decide if the difference is worth it. If you are diy guy and expect to be inside another engine in the next 10 years- get the hone and diy for most cases imo. If you’re never doing another engine then pay for it to be done. The cost of the shops time isn’t cheap. The advantage of the cross hatching by a machine is good because you know it is right. If it is the wazoo machine used in race engine machine shops, you are doing gapless rings, and spending big bucks on every detail gaining advantages everything - then consider it more as it will make the rings seat much quicker.
As to longer ring and cylinder life- yea it counts a little more IF YOU NEVER OVERHEAT IT. Get that 6.5 puppy to 240° one time and you negated the advantages for when that old dog to 200,000 miles. The cylinder walls will warp in the vertical axis and the temper is done from those rings -blow by is there regardless of how the crosshatching is. Remember the fine oil film held on is now in a corn field instead of a paved runway. So micro film of oil means diddly.
Don’t spend thousands into the fine intricacies of the engine and pinch pennies on cooling.
I have mentioned before when this engine goes in there will be visual and audible alarms for things like low coolant, high coolant temp at 215, low oil level, low oil pressure. That all besides the cooling improvements being made.
Many here are on a tight budget, some by need some by choice. Many who have more than one 6.5 will be into them all at some point. It only makes sense to do more yourself than pay someone else.
So you are not “breaking in” bearings. You are breaking in cylinders, rings, timing chain/gears, seals, valve guides, etc. things like cam to lifter, lifter to pushrod& block, under oil pressure are like the bearings. Things that are lubed by splash oil like wrist pins, rocker arm to valve tip, etc are all things with constant wear and are like the cylinder walls- that’s what is breaking in. But it is all about the amount of friction it has. Rings are riding on a fine film of oil trapped in the cross hatch. As the piston goes down it consumes some of that oil. Piston goes up and more oil splashes on the walls hopefully filling the cross hatch. Oil ring removes the excess. Now a fine film gets on the bottom ring then a little less on the top ring. Under power stroke the flame burns away remaining oil in the cross hatch. The top ring scrapes that carbon up and out the exhaust it goes. Rinse and repeat.
No cross hatch means the oil doesn’t stay on the cylinder walls well. Oil ring scrapes most of it away and by the time top ring goes down- it is not lubed well.
Eventually the top ring scrapes the actual wall instead of a fine oil film and micro welds to the cylinder “seized rings”- engine go boomy or loss of compression.
What if cross hatch angle is wrong? It just doesn’t oil the rings as well. So you might get blowby at 200,000 miles vs 220,000 miles. The further off the angle the sooner blowby. So should you panic over diy vs machine doing it. Meh… testing has shown compression ratios alter the peak of the angle because the applied force changes. (boost = changes in compression ratio so your boost going up and down as you drive is your compression changing) the angle is about how well it hols the oil mostly and the amount of oil held desire changes by how much gets burned each stroke. Some racers share info most wont. But friends share and some friends shared with me that hold many trophies in the nhra that they use way different cross hatch angle than 60° in certain situations.
When the cross hatch is done too deep but the angle is right- you basically have super tall mountains and deep valleys. Now it will take longer to seat the rings. Seating the rings is like- you have a mountain range (cylinder walls cross hatches) but some of those mountains are way taller- you want them equal peak height. The rings have to start chopping the highest points first and as you get rid of the skinny peaks, the mountain thickness gets more as you go down. So a lot of mountains that are too tall takes longer to wear away. Remember Seating the rings is really wearing away the cross hatch peak not making the rings smaller only the finest of edge wear on the ring is being seated.
So when the rings take a long time to seat- the cross hatching MIGHT have been done too much. Along with too high and low difference is the more prevalent too many mountains made. Instead of the rings wearing away 300 mountain tops they have to wear away 1,000 then it will take longer to seat the rings. The more valleys= the more oil held so better right? Until so many valleys get cut into the mountains that instead of strong wide based mountains you have city sky scrapers that don’t withstand side loads.
Wow- sounds scary and talked you right out of diy huh? Now you really want that perfect surface finish which the better it is the better the engine, right? Using the microscope to examine exact angle and surface finish for the “right” results.
How many 6.5 here had not a perfect life but still crushed the 250,000 mile mark?
I rebuilt more 6.5 engines than most people ever even see in a lifetime. How many machine finished hone jobs? Maybe 4, probably 3 out of hundreds- maybe into the thousand mark that I rebuilt. It’s not that critical boys. If it were, there wouldn’t be any 1970,1980,1990 rebuilds or even 1990 factory builds make it that far. The factory didn’t bore/hone then test surface grade finishes with test with the modern equipment. It got a simple fast hone. A worker used their finger and felt it with their finger tip And it went down the line and into a truck that started smoking around 209,000 miles or 290,000 miles more depending on did he change the oil, did he over heat it, did he replace the injectors or did they wash down the cylinders since they started acting up at 160,000 miles mark.
If you want every possible advantage- by all means, it is not a mistake to have the perfect finish on cylinder walls from day one. But how you treat it from day one has a far bigger impact than the perfection of cylinder wall surfaces.
Remember when we didn’t use a laptop to measure the surface finish on the head or block where the gasket goes? And somehow those engines went 300,000 miles too. Running 45psi boost, adding NOS, shaving partial seconds off track times? Winning a competition by 0.01 better mpg than the competition? Yup - it counts. Driving to work? Towing a boat once a month? Hauling 187 lbs less than the truck is rated for every weekday for work and more on the day off because if you get it done this weekend means maybe next weekend is play time? - yeah, millions of trucks been doing that for decades and no super scope was needed.
incredibly fast. How exact? If you get it perfect like the wazoo machines do vs learning by test runs at home with a drill to get the speed right- you are dealing with less than a 5% difference. Race track= massive advantage. Average truck- meh… If my block was already at the machine shop, I ask how much. Subtract the cost of a hone- not the cheap one, the real one. Then decide if the difference is worth it. If you are diy guy and expect to be inside another engine in the next 10 years- get the hone and diy for most cases imo. If you’re never doing another engine then pay for it to be done. The cost of the shops time isn’t cheap. The advantage of the cross hatching by a machine is good because you know it is right. If it is the wazoo machine used in race engine machine shops, you are doing gapless rings, and spending big bucks on every detail gaining advantages everything - then consider it more as it will make the rings seat much quicker.
As to longer ring and cylinder life- yea it counts a little more IF YOU NEVER OVERHEAT IT. Get that 6.5 puppy to 240° one time and you negated the advantages for when that old dog to 200,000 miles. The cylinder walls will warp in the vertical axis and the temper is done from those rings -blow by is there regardless of how the crosshatching is. Remember the fine oil film held on is now in a corn field instead of a paved runway. So micro film of oil means diddly.
Don’t spend thousands into the fine intricacies of the engine and pinch pennies on cooling.
I have mentioned before when this engine goes in there will be visual and audible alarms for things like low coolant, high coolant temp at 215, low oil level, low oil pressure. That all besides the cooling improvements being made.
Many here are on a tight budget, some by need some by choice. Many who have more than one 6.5 will be into them all at some point. It only makes sense to do more yourself than pay someone else.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Something to say about this thats a new diy error- cordless. Use a corded drill at full speed and here is why.
To get the cross hatch at the correct angles is easy. You can practice it against any piece of flat metal. Full trigger then pick a speed how fast to move. Do 3 strokes then stop and measure the angle- 99 cent store kids protractor is enough.
If the angle is too steep:slow down your stroke. If angle is too flat:speed up. But never change the speed of the drill, that will be the constant factor in your work.
Should you buy a corded if you only have cordless? No. But you better have a descent battery that wont loose power and slow down its speed while you do it.
Maybe do 4 cylinders then recharge it if needed.
People argue about what cutting oil or instead of cutting oil using diesel or gasoline with either 3 stone (there are 4 stone also but used same) or ball hone.
We did testing that did microscopic measurements and actually did dyno tests to learn the differences. It makes no difference to the engine so long as you keep it lubed. The stone cuts the metal and the lube washes away the debris, you dont want chunks of metal or stone piling up. You are not heating the metal enough to have impact so heat is not a concern. Gear Oil vs gas since that the most drastic difference - gas washes away the metal the fastest, makes the hone cut faster, least amount of metal rubbing metal which gives worse results. It also wears the hone the fastest PER STROKE. Now heavy oil like gear oil- the stone cuts slower and creates smaller metal scores per revolution. But now instead of a few strokes of the tool you have to do more strokes. So the argument of longer tool life becomes moot. Where the gasoline washes away the best it isn’t good and lube so now you get the argument of something in the middle. Light cutting oil or diesel fuel. My hair is grey- I am used to old school proven methods so I siphon the tank a little. I am for middle of the target and if I miss I still hit circle rather than the hill behind the target.
Is the cross hatching still there when broken in or miles down the road? It better be or that engine is doomed. Breaking in the engine is mostly about knocking the peaks off of your cross hatching- not wearing away the cross hatching. And about wearing the fine surface of the rings to the exact angle of the cylinder wall when under power stroke. Remember the rings are not fixed to the piston. The bearings should never need wearing in. They are not metal to metal- when that happens you get minutes of engine life not years. That evil first second of movement every new start is what does all that damage.
Remember I talk about the engines that get 100,000 miles a year and only shut off for oil changes? We did tests of never shut off. Set up truck with T fittings and ball valves for two fuel filters and two oil filters, hose & ball valve on drain plug. Did oil/ filter changes and never shut off the engine. We tried 10 trucks and 8 of them went 100,000 street driven miles and was never shut off. We did three trucks that we just estimated oil height and added oil as needed but never changed oil. All three died around 80,000 miles from plugged fuel filters but restarted and finished testing. Wear difference of clean oil was noteworthy. But all the engine bearings were in excellent condition and could have went another 300,000 easily. Start up is almost 100% of bearing wear.
So you are not “breaking in” bearings. You are breaking in cylinders, rings, timing chain/gears, seals, valve guides, etc. things like cam to lifter, lifter to pushrod& block, under oil pressure are like the bearings. Things that are lubed by splash oil like wrist pins, rocker arm to valve tip, etc are all things with constant wear and are like the cylinder walls- that’s what is breaking in. But it is all about the amount of friction it has. Rings are riding on a fine film of oil trapped in the cross hatch. As the piston goes down it consumes some of that oil. Piston goes up and more oil splashes on the walls hopefully filling the cross hatch. Oil ring removes the excess. Now a fine film gets on the bottom ring then a little less on the top ring. Under power stroke the flame burns away remaining oil in the cross hatch. The top ring scrapes that carbon up and out the exhaust it goes. Rinse and repeat.
No cross hatch means the oil doesn’t stay on the cylinder walls well. Oil ring scrapes most of it away and by the time top ring goes down- it is not lubed well.
Eventually the top ring scrapes the actual wall instead of a fine oil film and micro welds to the cylinder “seized rings”- engine go boomy or loss of compression.
What if cross hatch angle is wrong? It just doesn’t oil the rings as well. So you might get blowby at 200,000 miles vs 220,000 miles. The further off the angle the sooner blowby. So should you panic over diy vs machine doing it. Meh… testing has shown compression ratios alter the peak of the angle because the applied force changes. (boost = changes in compression ratio so your boost going up and down as you drive is your compression changing) the angle is about how well it hols the oil mostly and the amount of oil held desire changes by how much gets burned each stroke. Some racers share info most wont. But friends share and some friends shared with me that hold many trophies in the nhra that they use way different cross hatch angle than 60° in certain situations.
When the cross hatch is done too deep but the angle is right- you basically have super tall mountains and deep valleys. Now it will take longer to seat the rings. Seating the rings is like- you have a mountain range (cylinder walls cross hatches) but some of those mountains are way taller- you want them equal peak height. The rings have to start chopping the highest points first and as you get rid of the skinny peaks, the mountain thickness gets more as you go down. So a lot of mountains that are too tall takes longer to wear away. Remember Seating the rings is really wearing away the cross hatch peak not making the rings smaller only the finest of edge wear on the ring is being seated.
So when the rings take a long time to seat- the cross hatching MIGHT have been done too much. Along with too high and low difference is the more prevalent too many mountains made. Instead of the rings wearing away 300 mountain tops they have to wear away 1,000 then it will take longer to seat the rings. The more valleys= the more oil held so better right? Until so many valleys get cut into the mountains that instead of strong wide based mountains you have city sky scrapers that don’t withstand side loads.
Wow- sounds scary and talked you right out of diy huh? Now you really want that perfect surface finish which the better it is the better the engine, right? Using the microscope to examine exact angle and surface finish for the “right” results.
How many 6.5 here had not a perfect life but still crushed the 250,000 mile mark?
I rebuilt more 6.5 engines than most people ever even see in a lifetime. How many machine finished hone jobs? Maybe 4, probably 3 out of hundreds- maybe into the thousand mark that I rebuilt. It’s not that critical boys. If it were, there wouldn’t be any 1970,1980,1990 rebuilds or even 1990 factory builds make it that far. The factory didn’t bore/hone then test surface grade finishes with test with the modern equipment. It got a simple fast hone. A worker used their finger and felt it with their finger tip And it went down the line and into a truck that started smoking around 209,000 miles or 290,000 miles more depending on did he change the oil, did he over heat it, did he replace the injectors or did they wash down the cylinders since they started acting up at 160,000 miles mark.
If you want every possible advantage- by all means, it is not a mistake to have the perfect finish on cylinder walls from day one. But how you treat it from day one has a far bigger impact than the perfection of cylinder wall surfaces.
Remember when we didn’t use a laptop to measure the surface finish on the head or block where the gasket goes? And somehow those engines went 300,000 miles too. Running 45psi boost, adding NOS, shaving partial seconds off track times? Winning a competition by 0.01 better mpg than the competition? Yup - it counts. Driving to work? Towing a boat once a month? Hauling 187 lbs less than the truck is rated for every weekday for work and more on the day off because if you get it done this weekend means maybe next weekend is play time? - yeah, millions of trucks been doing that for decades and no super scope was needed.
To get the cross hatch at the correct angles is easy. You can practice it against any piece of flat metal. Full trigger then pick a speed how fast to move. Do 3 strokes then stop and measure the angle- 99 cent store kids protractor is enough.
If the angle is too steep:slow down your stroke. If angle is too flat:speed up. But never change the speed of the drill, that will be the constant factor in your work.
Should you buy a corded if you only have cordless? No. But you better have a descent battery that wont loose power and slow down its speed while you do it.
Maybe do 4 cylinders then recharge it if needed.
People argue about what cutting oil or instead of cutting oil using diesel or gasoline with either 3 stone (there are 4 stone also but used same) or ball hone.
We did testing that did microscopic measurements and actually did dyno tests to learn the differences. It makes no difference to the engine so long as you keep it lubed. The stone cuts the metal and the lube washes away the debris, you dont want chunks of metal or stone piling up. You are not heating the metal enough to have impact so heat is not a concern. Gear Oil vs gas since that the most drastic difference - gas washes away the metal the fastest, makes the hone cut faster, least amount of metal rubbing metal which gives worse results. It also wears the hone the fastest PER STROKE. Now heavy oil like gear oil- the stone cuts slower and creates smaller metal scores per revolution. But now instead of a few strokes of the tool you have to do more strokes. So the argument of longer tool life becomes moot. Where the gasoline washes away the best it isn’t good and lube so now you get the argument of something in the middle. Light cutting oil or diesel fuel. My hair is grey- I am used to old school proven methods so I siphon the tank a little. I am for middle of the target and if I miss I still hit circle rather than the hill behind the target.
Is the cross hatching still there when broken in or miles down the road? It better be or that engine is doomed. Breaking in the engine is mostly about knocking the peaks off of your cross hatching- not wearing away the cross hatching. And about wearing the fine surface of the rings to the exact angle of the cylinder wall when under power stroke. Remember the rings are not fixed to the piston. The bearings should never need wearing in. They are not metal to metal- when that happens you get minutes of engine life not years. That evil first second of movement every new start is what does all that damage.
Remember I talk about the engines that get 100,000 miles a year and only shut off for oil changes? We did tests of never shut off. Set up truck with T fittings and ball valves for two fuel filters and two oil filters, hose & ball valve on drain plug. Did oil/ filter changes and never shut off the engine. We tried 10 trucks and 8 of them went 100,000 street driven miles and was never shut off. We did three trucks that we just estimated oil height and added oil as needed but never changed oil. All three died around 80,000 miles from plugged fuel filters but restarted and finished testing. Wear difference of clean oil was noteworthy. But all the engine bearings were in excellent condition and could have went another 300,000 easily. Start up is almost 100% of bearing wear.
So you are not “breaking in” bearings. You are breaking in cylinders, rings, timing chain/gears, seals, valve guides, etc. things like cam to lifter, lifter to pushrod& block, under oil pressure are like the bearings. Things that are lubed by splash oil like wrist pins, rocker arm to valve tip, etc are all things with constant wear and are like the cylinder walls- that’s what is breaking in. But it is all about the amount of friction it has. Rings are riding on a fine film of oil trapped in the cross hatch. As the piston goes down it consumes some of that oil. Piston goes up and more oil splashes on the walls hopefully filling the cross hatch. Oil ring removes the excess. Now a fine film gets on the bottom ring then a little less on the top ring. Under power stroke the flame burns away remaining oil in the cross hatch. The top ring scrapes that carbon up and out the exhaust it goes. Rinse and repeat.
No cross hatch means the oil doesn’t stay on the cylinder walls well. Oil ring scrapes most of it away and by the time top ring goes down- it is not lubed well.
Eventually the top ring scrapes the actual wall instead of a fine oil film and micro welds to the cylinder “seized rings”- engine go boomy or loss of compression.
What if cross hatch angle is wrong? It just doesn’t oil the rings as well. So you might get blowby at 200,000 miles vs 220,000 miles. The further off the angle the sooner blowby. So should you panic over diy vs machine doing it. Meh… testing has shown compression ratios alter the peak of the angle because the applied force changes. (boost = changes in compression ratio so your boost going up and down as you drive is your compression changing) the angle is about how well it hols the oil mostly and the amount of oil held desire changes by how much gets burned each stroke. Some racers share info most wont. But friends share and some friends shared with me that hold many trophies in the nhra that they use way different cross hatch angle than 60° in certain situations.
When the cross hatch is done too deep but the angle is right- you basically have super tall mountains and deep valleys. Now it will take longer to seat the rings. Seating the rings is like- you have a mountain range (cylinder walls cross hatches) but some of those mountains are way taller- you want them equal peak height. The rings have to start chopping the highest points first and as you get rid of the skinny peaks, the mountain thickness gets more as you go down. So a lot of mountains that are too tall takes longer to wear away. Remember Seating the rings is really wearing away the cross hatch peak not making the rings smaller only the finest of edge wear on the ring is being seated.
So when the rings take a long time to seat- the cross hatching MIGHT have been done too much. Along with too high and low difference is the more prevalent too many mountains made. Instead of the rings wearing away 300 mountain tops they have to wear away 1,000 then it will take longer to seat the rings. The more valleys= the more oil held so better right? Until so many valleys get cut into the mountains that instead of strong wide based mountains you have city sky scrapers that don’t withstand side loads.
Wow- sounds scary and talked you right out of diy huh? Now you really want that perfect surface finish which the better it is the better the engine, right? Using the microscope to examine exact angle and surface finish for the “right” results.
How many 6.5 here had not a perfect life but still crushed the 250,000 mile mark?
I rebuilt more 6.5 engines than most people ever even see in a lifetime. How many machine finished hone jobs? Maybe 4, probably 3 out of hundreds- maybe into the thousand mark that I rebuilt. It’s not that critical boys. If it were, there wouldn’t be any 1970,1980,1990 rebuilds or even 1990 factory builds make it that far. The factory didn’t bore/hone then test surface grade finishes with test with the modern equipment. It got a simple fast hone. A worker used their finger and felt it with their finger tip And it went down the line and into a truck that started smoking around 209,000 miles or 290,000 miles more depending on did he change the oil, did he over heat it, did he replace the injectors or did they wash down the cylinders since they started acting up at 160,000 miles mark.
If you want every possible advantage- by all means, it is not a mistake to have the perfect finish on cylinder walls from day one. But how you treat it from day one has a far bigger impact than the perfection of cylinder wall surfaces.
Remember when we didn’t use a laptop to measure the surface finish on the head or block where the gasket goes? And somehow those engines went 300,000 miles too. Running 45psi boost, adding NOS, shaving partial seconds off track times? Winning a competition by 0.01 better mpg than the competition? Yup - it counts. Driving to work? Towing a boat once a month? Hauling 187 lbs less than the truck is rated for every weekday for work and more on the day off because if you get it done this weekend means maybe next weekend is play time? - yeah, millions of trucks been doing that for decades and no super scope was needed.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Now someone disable my
“Talk to text” before it gets worse!
“Talk to text” before it gets worse!